Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 29 Nov 2022 7:33 a.m. PST |
As the title says I've seen two ranges of 1809 Brunswick soldiers and both offer infantry miniatures with oak leaves on their Shako. I'm completely new to Napoleonics what was the significance of the oak leaves? If I wanted some 1809 Black band do I buy the ones with the oak leaves or the ones with out? |
enfant perdus | 29 Nov 2022 8:08 a.m. PST |
Oak leaves were the traditional field sign of the Hapsburg forces, dating back to at least the late 18th Century. The Brunswickers operated with the Austrians in 1809, so wearing their field sign was a hedge against misidentification. |
Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 29 Nov 2022 8:17 a.m. PST |
Ahh a field sign got it. I did wonder if that was the case I know they were used in the ECW but then everyone looked very similar in dress bit hard to tell them apart. I figured the Brunswickers had a rather distinctive uniforms and wouldn't need a field sign. Thanks for the information 👍 |
79thPA | 29 Nov 2022 8:17 a.m. PST |
Agreed. I believe the Austrians also made the shakos worn by the Brunswickers, so they got whatever the Austrian shako factory was cranking out. |
enfant perdus | 29 Nov 2022 9:18 a.m. PST |
I figured the Brunswickers had a rather distinctive uniforms and wouldn't need a field sign. The Austrians themselves were still wearing them (and continued into WWI) although it was, for them, more about tradition. The Brunswickers were very distinctive, but not everybody gets the memo. As you delve further into Napoleonics (it's inevitable) you'll start to encounter incidents where allies misidentified each other as the enemy and opened fire, or as a friend and let them get too close. |
79thPA | 29 Nov 2022 9:36 a.m. PST |
I believe the French opened fire on the Saxons in the 1809 campaign because they thought the Saxons were Austrians. |
Korvessa | 29 Nov 2022 11:12 a.m. PST |
I wonder which is more likely to get you killed while waiting for identity confirmation: 1) Don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes 2) Don't shoot until you see the small green field sign |
Au pas de Charge | 29 Nov 2022 12:10 p.m. PST |
I believe the French opened fire on the Saxons in the 1809 campaign because they thought the Saxons were Austrians. That's the official story but it could be that it was for attitude adjustment. |
von Winterfeldt | 29 Nov 2022 12:12 p.m. PST |
The Saxons did wear hats in 1809, the Austrian shakos or helmets, quite a different silhouette. |
79thPA | 29 Nov 2022 12:43 p.m. PST |
It wasn't the hat -- it was the white uniform. |
Erzherzog Johann | 29 Nov 2022 7:32 p.m. PST |
There were Austrian Landwehr wearing hats, Austrian officers wearing hats. Also on the smoky field of battle, people wouldn't necessarily be accurately identifying individual soldiers' hat shapes amongst a mass of hundreds or thousands of approaching soldiers. To quote Elvis Costello, "Accidents will happen". Cheers, John |
olicana | 30 Nov 2022 2:27 a.m. PST |
When asked about Spanish uniforms being made in England, Wellesley said he didn't care so long as their hats were not to be confused with French bell topped shakos – because he was fed up with the Spanish being misidentified and shot at (especially in bad light when hat silhouette was key). Many Spanish units got bell topped shakos anyway and from 1814, they all got one to go with their blue coats – I ask you! I can see Wellesley's point. I regularly supplement my French artillery crews with Spanish ones and not one player has ever noticed. |
Mark J Wilson | 30 Nov 2022 3:21 a.m. PST |
@ olciana Explains why Wellington didn't realise all those men on his left at Waterloo were Prussians and started the story that he won the battle all by himself. Good job he didn't have to be at Leipzig or Dresden. |
Mark J Wilson | 30 Nov 2022 3:25 a.m. PST |
@ Au pas de charge An adherent of Bernadotte's excuse theory then. I don't think Oudinot saw it that way. The real confusion was actually in the village, which was on fire. Two groups of men in white uniforms both speaking German fighting house to house in a mixture of failing light and smoke, what could possibly go wrong. |
4th Cuirassier | 30 Nov 2022 5:15 a.m. PST |
@ Mark J Wilson Probably the reason he thought the Prussians on his left were French was because they were attacking his left. The Nassauers who shot at and tried to kill him were supposed to be on his side, as were the German hussars who ran away to Brussels and reported that he'd been defeated. It was a pretty confusing day. |
Darrell B D Day | 30 Nov 2022 10:08 a.m. PST |
@Mark J Wilson Did he (Wellington)? Have you got a reference? DBDD |
Mark J Wilson | 30 Nov 2022 11:15 a.m. PST |
@ Darrell Look up and the fate of Captain Siborne and his original diorama. |
Au pas de Charge | 30 Nov 2022 11:59 a.m. PST |
@ Au pas de chargeAn adherent of Bernadotte's excuse theory then. I don't think Oudinot saw it that way. The real confusion was actually in the village, which was on fire. Two groups of men in white uniforms both speaking German fighting house to house in a mixture of failing light and smoke, what could possibly go wrong. Maybe they were trying to shoot Bernadotte? Did all the Austrian soldiers speak German? It's an interesting idea. I suppose the orders were often given in German. I'm too lazy to check if those were German speaking Austrian units in front of the Saxons.
@ DarrellLook up and the fate of Captain Siborne and his original diorama. Uh oh, you just opened up a whole can of Beef Wellington! |
Erzherzog Johann | 30 Nov 2022 8:09 p.m. PST |
Certainly not all Austrian soldiers spoke German, and although higher ranking officers might well have received their orders in German, the orders would have been transmitted to the rank and file in Czech, Polish, Hungarian, Romanian etc. Cheers, John |
von Winterfeldt | 01 Dec 2022 12:32 a.m. PST |
I am not aware that the orders were tranferred into native tongue, do you have any sources, quotes on this? |
Mark J Wilson | 01 Dec 2022 2:43 a.m. PST |
I'm relying on memory because I'm a lazy old …. but I'm pretty sure the regiments fighting in Wagram that night were from Germanic areas. @ Aus pas de charge I like the Beef Wellington joke. Edited to add, the 'Austrians' were all from Bohemia, so notionally Czech speakers, but I believe all their officers would have spoken German. Post 1860 the army had a semi official language 'Army Slavic', but I can't find any evidence for this being in use earlier. |
enfant perdus | 01 Dec 2022 2:00 p.m. PST |
The language of command was always German, right down to the orders given at the battalion, company and zug level. Every solider, regardless of his mother tongue, was required to know German drill commands and expected to have a minimal level of "army German". This was the only way ensure that any officer could give an order and be understood if the situation arose. Obviously the day-to-day internal economies of the regiments (overseen by the NCOs) were carried out in native tongues, as were a lot of the encouragements and rebukes during battle. But orders, were always in German. With the Ausgleich of 1867, their was enormous pressure to make Magyar the language of command in Hungarian regiments. It nearly came to pass, but failed due to the extreme hostility of the non-Magyar "Hungarian" regiments. The Croats, for example, were quite clear that they would violently refuse any orders delivered in Magyar. |
Au pas de Charge | 04 Dec 2022 4:06 p.m. PST |
When asked about Spanish uniforms being made in England, Wellesley said he didn't care so long as their hats were not to be confused with French bell topped shakos – because he was fed up with the Spanish being misidentified and shot at (especially in bad light when hat silhouette was key). Many Spanish units got bell topped shakos anyway and from 1814, they all got one to go with their blue coats – I ask you! It's interesting that they didn't send the Spanish soldiers British shakos and uniforms. Maybe he didn't want them mistaken for British either. |
Erzherzog Johann | 07 Dec 2022 11:14 p.m. PST |
Based on what others have written, I must have been mistaken. I thought I'd read something to that effect. However I can't imagine it would be much different to ballet dancers learning all their instructions and terms in French, or a karateka learning theirs in Japanese. Cheers, John |