"Who besides me believes in American exceptionalism?" Topic

Looking across the millenia of history, one is struck both by how UNLIKELY the United States is, and also what a blessing it has been to the world in terms of freedom (an ideal where not yet a reality) and of prosperity.

There is a direct line between John Winthrop and Ronald Reagan. But the "city on a hill" was and is as much a warning as a boast:

(a lesson plan for Winthrop's sermon:)

1.JOHN WINTHROP, "A MODELL OF CHRISTIAN CHARITY," 1630 (EXCERPTS)

The end [of our actions] is to improve our lives to do more service to the Lord; the comfort and increase of the body of Christ, whereof we are members; that ourselves and posterity may be the better preserved from the common corruptions of this evil world, to serve the Lord and work out our Salvation under the power and purity of his holy ordinances. For the means whereby this must be effected: they are twofold, a conformity with the work and end we aim at.

"End" here means purpose. What are the ends which the new colony is to serve? Which is more important, means or ends?

These we see are extraordinary, therefore we must not content ourselves with usual ordinary means. Whatsoever we did, or ought to have, done, when we lived in England, the same must we do, and more also, where we go. That which the most in their churches maintain as truth in profession only, we must bring into familiar and constant practice;

How are the means to be employed extraordinary? What is to be the relationship between ideals and practices (between what you say and what you do)?

as in this duty of love, we must love brotherly without dissimulation, we must love one another with a pure heart fervently. We must bear one another's burdens. We must not look only on our own things, but also on the things of our brethren.

Love is a duty. How are we to love? Is love a feeling, or an action?

Neither must we think that the Lord will bear with such failings at our hands as he do the from those among whom we have lived…. Thus stands the cause between God and us. We are entered into covenant with Him for this work. We have taken out a commission. The Lord hath given us leave to draw our own articles. We have professed to enterprise these and those accounts, upon these and those ends. We have hereupon besought Him of favor and blessing.

How does Winthrop evaluate the people back in England ("those among whom we have lived")? What freedoms has God given the colonists? Why must New England be better than old England?

Now if the Lord shall please to hear us, and bring us in peace to the place we desire, then hath he ratified this covenant and sealed our Commission, and will expect a strict performance of the articles contained in it; but if we shall neglect the observation of these articles which are the ends we have propounded, and, dissembling with our God, shall fall to embrace this present world and prosecute our carnal intentions, seeking great things for ourselves and our posterity, the Lord will surely break out in wrath against us; be revenged of such a [sinful] people and make us know the price of the breaches of such a covenant.

What will God do if the colonists do not live up to their end of the covenant?

Now the only way to avoid this shipwreck, and to provide for our posterity, is to follow the counsel of Micah, to do justly, to love mercy, to walk humbly with our God. For this end, we must be knit together, in this work, as one man. We must entertain each other in brotherly affection. We must be willing to abridge ourselves of our superfluities, for the supply of other's necessities. We must uphold a familiar commerce together in all meekness, gentleness, patience and liberality. We must delight in each other; make other's conditions our own; rejoice together, mourn together, labor and suffer together, always having before our eyes our commission and community in the work, as members of the same body. So shall we keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.

How must the colonists treat one another? Be specific.

The Lord will be our God, and delight to dwell among us, as his own people, and will command a blessing upon us in all our ways. So that we shall see much more of his wisdom, power, goodness and truth, than formerly we have been acquainted with. We shall find that the God of Israel is among us, when ten of us shall be able to resist a thousand of our enemies; when he shall make us a praise and glory that men shall say of succeeding plantations, "the Lord make it like that of New England."

How will the Puritans know if they have succeeded?

For we must consider that we shall be as a city upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us. So that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken, and so cause him to withdraw his present help from us, we shall be made a story and a by-word through the world. We shall open the mouths of enemies to speak evil of the ways of God, and all professors for God's sake. We shall shame the faces of many of God's worthy servants, and cause their prayers to be turned into curses upon us till wee be consumed out of the good land whither we are a going.

Is the new colony to be exceptional? What are the two alternate ways (one or the other) in which it will be exceptional?

I shall shut up this discourse with that exhortation of Moses, that faithful servant of the Lord, in his last farewell to Israel, Deut. 30: Beloved there is now set before us life and good, Death and evil, in that we are commanded this day to love the Lord our God, and to love one another, to walk in his ways and to keep his Commandments and his Ordinance and his laws, and the articles of our Covenant with him, that we may live and be multiplied, and that the Lord our God may blesse us in the land whither we go to possess it.

How are the Puritans like the Children of Israel whom Moses led? What did the Hebrews do immediately after Moses died?

But if our hearts shall turn away, so that we will not obey, but shall be seduced, and worship and serve other Gods, our pleasure and profits, and serve them; it is propounded unto us this day, we shall surely perish out of the good land whither we pass over this vast sea to possess it; Therefore let us choose life – that we, and our seed may live, by obeying His voice and cleaving to Him, for He is our life and our prosperity.

What is the choice facing the Puritans? What "other Gods" was Winthrop concerned that the Puritans might worship?

Source: From John Winthrop, "A Model of Christian Charity," Collections of the Massachusetts Historical Society (Boston, 1838), 3rd series 7:31–48.
link

Yep, I'm a believer.

Heard at least theory why the USA had such a great beginning it could only get bigger and stronger so more prosperous.
Big part is land usable to population, we had more land than people. We have had more discovery, innovation, freedom to chose what direction we have wanted to go.
I think there can be no debate about it but try if you want.

Yes, all of that land out there was a huge factor -- as was the fact that the early English settlers were coming from a society in which land ownership was THE most important thing. For all of its problems, there is some fundamental truth in Turner's Frontier Thesis.

But equally vital was that ENGLISH political ideas prevailed and not French or Spanish.

We are all special in our own ways, Doc.

But what has this to do with wargaming? Unless we are always to ensure the Americans win.

advocate. here is what this board is about: For discussion of things related to history in general or across multiple periods, and not to specific periods.

And of course we ARE all special in our own ways. But some do greater things than others.

"Exceptional" is not the same as "special." The first is comparative; the second is universal.

The United States is an EXCEPTIONAL nation which has done more and greater things for the world (in terms of material prosperity and political freedom) than any other.

And, of course, we have had some shameful failures too, although the biggest was eventually corrected at a high price in blood.

I agree with Lincoln that Americans are "God's almost chosen people."

Trenton, New Jersey
February 21, 1861
President-elect Abraham Lincoln spoke separately to each branch of the New Jersey legislature on his inaugural journey to Washington. In the Senate, he referred to Trenton's Revolutionary War heroics and spoke of himself as a "humble instrument in the hands of the Almighty, and of this, his almost chosen people, for perpetuating the object of that great struggle."

Mr. President and Gentlemen of the Senate of the State of New-Jersey: I am very grateful to you for the honorable reception of which I have been the object. I cannot but remember the place that New-Jersey holds in our early history. In the early Revolutionary struggle, few of the States among the old Thirteen had more of the battle-fields of the country within their limits than old New-Jersey. May I be pardoned if, upon this occasion, I mention that away back in my childhood, the earliest days of my being able to read, I got hold of a small book, such a one as few of the younger members have ever seen, "Weem's Life of Washington." I remember all the accounts there given of the battle fields and struggles for the liberties of the country, and none fixed themselves upon my imagination so deeply as the struggle here at Trenton, New-Jersey. The crossing of the river; the contest with the Hessians; the great hardships endured at that time, all fixed themselves on my memory more than any single revolutionary event; and you all know, for you have all been boys, how these early impressions last longer than any others. I recollect thinking then, boy even though I was, that there must have been something more than common that those men struggled for; that something even more than National Independence; that something that held out a great promise to all the people of the world to all time to come; I am exceedingly anxious that this Union, the Constitution, and the liberties of the people shall be perpetuated in accordance with the original idea for which that struggle was made, and I shall be most happy indeed if I shall be an humble instrument in the hands of the Almighty, and of this, his almost chosen people, for perpetuating the object of that great struggle.

On this topic, I highly recommend John Wilsey's _American Exceptionalism and Civil Religion: Reassessing the History of an Idea_.

Well. Tipp, why are you here? For years, huh?

Blount, thanks, I'll take a look.

Given the vastness and infinite complexity of the universe containing likely millions if not billions of exoplanets within the ‘Goldilocks Zone', I find the idea of a deity so limited if not actually petty as to give so much as an acknowledgement, much less any kind of exceptional recognition for all of 4.12% of the global populace, highly improbable.

McK, you have indeed put your finger on the scandal of the Gospel. The Creator, Lord of the Universe, infinite and eternal, came down to US as a man. And was killed by the world He created. Improbable hardly begins to cover it. Are you just now noticing that? We've been amazed by it for 2000 years.

Sorry…but is this topic meant as a joke?

Still the greatest country in the world, says I. No place else I'd rather be.

The US was exceptional in that it created its empire almost exclusively on a single land mass (and wasn't averse to doing near-terminal harm to many of the original inhabitants). How that works out for longevity remains to be seen, but the Romans did OK in similar circumstances :)

OMG I don't believe this thread. You people have problems. Bill…are you going to allow this. I will address this nonsense later.

David, yes, possessing a continent was crucial. But American ideals of limited government and individual rights, and prosperity, have spread worldwide. The world is a fundamentally better place than it would be had, for example, the Spanish or French dominated North America, as they well might have. And the Roman parallel has some merit.

Interesting thread.

As for me – I find the parallels between the Rome of
Gibbon's _Decline and Fall_ and our current governing
body (ALL OF IT) both stark and frightful.

I believe history is quite literally replete with various and sundry empires/nations/kingdoms/tribes etc., all of whom were absolutely certain their God/Deity/Sacred tree or rock or chipmunk whatever had selected them as being special/exceptional/chosen/uniquely blessed. I am equally certain they were without exception. wrong.

So I suppose this means we in Canada are wicked for rejecting annexation by the United States and thus defying Gods plan?

Well, the Russians had just as much land, if not more, than we had to expand into and you can see the differences between the two nations today. So I would not explain all we've accomplished based strictly on the land. I think if you add the remoteness of the motherland in the early years, the Anglo-Saxon political system, the Enlightenment, the isolation, (which forged a desire for individualism), and the desire not to be someone else's slaves, and you can make an argument for American exceptionalism.

What is this gibberish?

Hi John.

McK, of course, but I a arguing that the USA has OBJECTIVELY increased the world's freedom and prosperity by its revolutionary ideas (imported from England and Scotland, mostly) and their application and growth in North America. Exceptionally so, in comparison with other nations.

This is amongst the funniest things I've ever read. And if it's not against at least one of TMP's rules I'd be amazed. 😁

"Can I discuss religion here?
On the main wargaming forums, religion cannot be discussed. More specifically, the main forums are not the place to proselyte for any religion or to denigrate any religion. Exceptions are made for brief mentions for identification purposes or when history is relevant to an historical discussion. Religion may be discussed freely on The Blue Fez."

Dn Jackson, yes, and DeToqueville noticed that.

"There are at the present time two great nations in the world, which started from different points, but seem to tend towards the same end. I allude to the Russians and the Americans. Both of them have grown up unnoticed; and whilst the attention of mankind was directed elsewhere, they have suddenly placed themselves in the front rank among the nations, and the world learned their existence and their greatness at almost the same time.

All other nations seem to have nearly reached their natural limits, and they have only to maintain their power; but these are still in the act of growth. All the others have stopped, or continue to advance with extreme difficulty; these alone are proceeding with ease and celerity along a path to which no limit can be perceived. The American struggles against the obstacles which nature opposes to him; the adversaries of the Russian are men. The former combats the wilderness and savage life; the latter, civilization with all its arms. The conquests of the American are therefore gained with the ploughshare; those of the Russian by the sword. The Anglo-American relies upon personal interest to accomplish his ends, and gives free scope to the unguided strength and common sense of the people; the Russian centres all the authority of society in a single arm. The principal instrument of the former is freedom; of the latter, servitude. Their starting-point is different, and their courses are not the same; yet each of them seems marked out by the will of Heaven to sway the destinies of half the globe."

― Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America

@ advocate Doc has a long history of posts that are right on the edge of the rules. Somehow, he always gets away with it.

@ doc mb When you say that God came down to "US", I assume you mean "us"? You have truly descended into madness if you think God came down to the good old USofA. Not even Joseph of Arimathea managed to go that far.

Other contributions to American Greatness since WW1 (since the USA was pretty insignificant before) was the appropriation of ICI and other UK assets, together with a policy of paying engineers well; at least double the UK salaries, and even more for engineers from other countries. This has provided a continuous stream of talent from the entire world to the USA. Of course, in order to do that, your poorer people are paid much less.

Freedoms are also relevant here, including freedom of religious expression, NOT LIMITED TO CHRISTIANITY.

Uhmmm? I heard there would be cake?😶

Dagwood, yes, freedom is not limited to Christianity. And of course US means the human race.

And of course we attract talent from all oveer the world. You will have to demonstrate that our poor people, are paid, less, however. I'm not buying that. All of those immigrants, legal and otherwise, are not coming here to be POORER.

No one seems to be addressing my POINT. Just nibbling around the edges.

Ah – sorry I missed your point. Barbarian that I am,
I'll shut up and go away…

@doc MCB

I'll address your point.

Your point is that Americans are better than the rest of humanity because you and an imaginary deity say they are.

The hubris and arrogance of that belief is breathtaking.

The European Enlightenment happened when you were still being scalped by Native Americans and hanging women as witches.

Europe extended its empires across oceans and continents while you were trying to throw off its shackles and going on to live in splendid isolation until the modern world caught up with you in 1917. After sticking your noses into the post war peace talks with Articles 231 and 232 thus setting the stage for WWII, you settled back into isolationism. Of course the one positive that the US gained from the Great War was the fatal weakening of the British Empire.

Since WWII, which ended with the final dismantling of European empires, you've attempted to build your own empire by starting wars you've been unable to finish.

You're really funny. God hasn't been in touch, but he probably agrees with me.

The chosen of God? Nah, they're in the Middle East not the Mid West. And they're organising like America did in the 18th century.

Shakes head

Robert Johnson, that is not in the slightest what I am saying. I AM saying (three or four times now) that the United States has been a blessing to the rest of the world in terms of expanding freedom and prosperity, and is in that sense AT LEAST exceptional. IF one believes in God and sees His hand across history, one MAY argue (as Winthrop and Lincoln and Reagan did) that God has used the United States as an instrument for good. But of course (again, as Winthrop argued) that in turn means we carry a greater shame for our failures.

Btw, where were most witches killed, and by whom? That would be in Europe, by a factor of 1000 or so.

a very serious topic……

i from this side of the pond like to remember the words of al murray poet and historian and artist.

americans see the war of independence as a victory. we british see it as a lucky escape

how true those words are even today/

The US is certainly a wonderful place to live by most global standards but it is a product of a long line of evolutionary development starting with the Greeks through the Romans, the Arabic expansion and the Renaissance to Enlightenment politico-cultural development of Europe rather than some unique divinely inspired exceptional development.

Attributing divine favor or intervention to any group or idea seems silly. For every Lincoln or Reagan there has been an Amy Semple McPherson, Father Coughlin, the Reverend Colonel John Chivington and the noted part time minister and full time airplane collector Kenneth Copeland.

Patriarch Kiril of the Russian Orthodox Church has proclaimed Holy Russia as the true favorite of God so perhaps he and some exceptional American can duke it out spiritually while awaiting divine intervention?

As all powerful deities go, his hand across history seems shaky given all of human history has been a slow climb out of the muck often accompanied by actual rivers of blood.

I see nothing but friendly arguments who is better, I have no doubt others, Canada including who think they are exceptional as well. It's puffing out your chest, nothing wrong with that.

Just wondering – on this day of all days – if there's anything to be said for holding off on the judgement for a bit to see how it all turns out – y'know, is it maybe "too early to tell" (to borrow a phrase)?

To repeat the words of Sir Isaac Newton in this different context, if USA is exceptional, it's because it is "standing on the shoulders of giants", mostly from other nations.

"To repeat the words of Sir Isaac Newton in this different context, if USA is exceptional, it's because it is "standing on the shoulders of giants", mostly from other nations."

Care to explain how and why? Why do so few people today fail to explain their generalized statements? Is everyone a puddle that thinks itself a lake?

Keep posting, Doc. I find them interesting.

BTW for those who find Doc McB's posts offensive or a waste of time, that is what the stifle and ignore buttons are for aren't they?

Having met them several times at various Cold Wars years ago, The McBride family is wonderful good people, as my relatives would say. :-)

I didn't enslave, genocide, nor wantonly destroy anyone.

Really tired of seeing my nation raked over the coals for something that is long gone. Tired of hearing how this or that person is owed something as if we live in a linear world of straight lines.

If you can't get over these past events long enough to even acknowledge the achievements made, then go live somewhere else. I bet living in that somewhere else loses its luster really fast.

Augustus, yes. There was a tragic inevitability to the destruction of the native cultures in the New World. Disease was the main culprit, but when "two" cultures (actually of course hundreds if not thousands of native cultures -- which was a big part of their problem) collide and one is thousands of years more advanced, not just in weapons technology but in political and social and economic institutions -- well, as I say, tragic and inevitable. And of course the Europeans were as much subject to the human sins of cruelty and greed as were any (and all) others.

Mister Tibbles, yes, and in fact I make a point of titling a thread so people have an idea what is there. If the topic doesn't interest you, just ignore it. If it OFFENDS you and you come here to be offended -- well, whatever pleases you, I suppose.

I believe that America is exceptional when we act exceptionally. I'm hard pressed to see evidence of that lately, but feel that at many points previously we did and were.

Exceptionality isn't exclusive to the US, by the way.

Doc, thanks for the De Toqueville quote. Having never read his writings in full, I was unaware of his observations on Russia and the US.

As for the original question of your post. I've always assumed it was so obvious as to not require a direct answer. The people on this board born in the 80s did not have the advantage of growing up with the Soviet Union as an example of what a nation run on the opposite of American, (and Western), ideals looks like. The US came out of WWII as one of the most powerful countries the world has ever seen. How did it use that power? To conquer? To enslave? No, to get as many humans as possible around the world to choose their own destiny through the blessing of democracy. We've failed too often, but no other country with our power has used that power to try to help rather than conquer other countries.

McKinstry, no offense mate, but your posts are long on insults and short on arguments.

Someone posted, "After sticking your noses into the post war peace talks with Articles 231 and 232 thus setting the stage for WWII,"

I've actually been thinking a bit about this recently, without digging too far into the politics of the 20s and 30s. The one point I will note of this period is that Italy, on the winning side in WWI, still fell to the leftists and became a totalitarian dictatorship.

Dn Jackson, that DeT quote was widely quoted back in the 60s, at the height of the Cold War. At least it was at Rice University, where I was assigned DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA to read THREE TIMES, in US History and in American government and in a third course I cannot remember. Political theory, maybe.

The America I grew up believing in, is not the America of today.
And this world is a much sadder place to be because of that.

I used to believe in American exceptionalism when I was young. Today, I think our late 20th century leadership and impact on the world is only due to our not getting bombed into the stone age like most of Europe in WW2. It's pretty easy to compete when you have functional factories versus piles of rubble.

True enough, but it also matters what you do with your strength. We crushed several evil totalitarian systems, in spite of ourselves. "And the Wall came a tumbling down . . ."