"British and French infantry 1813-1814" Topic

I am interested in the 1813-1814 campaign in Stralsund/Holstein and Holland. I need some information about uniforms.

Regarding the British infantry, did they wear the Stovepipe or the Belgic shako? Or some regiments wore the Stovepipe and some others wore the Belgic shako?

I need some information about the British veteran regiments (veteran and foreign veteran), specifically about their uniforms and headgear.

Regarding the French infantry, it is widely accepted that the Bardin uniforms were not universally adopted.

But what about the Young Guard? Did they wear the previous uniforms or the new Bardin regulations?

By this time, the British would probably be in the 'new' 1812 regulation uniforms with the 'Belgic' shako. It was more of a mixed bag in Spain as Wellington had such well-stocked stores in 1812-13 that he gained permission to delay the new issue by at least a year.

The veteran battalions wore the same uniform as the line regiments. For detail, you will have to track down the individual units. Here is a good start:

link

As for the French, guard and line until the end, they wore a mix of the pre and post 1812 regulation uniforms. 1813-1814 was so chaotic with regard to logistics, you would have to track down each individual unit to find out what they wore. My rule of thumb is to have the majority in pre-1812 with a few post-1812 uniforms mixed in.

@ Ruchel have you found this. PDF link nothing on uniforms but plenty of other useful information, particularly if you want to resist the all battalions have 24 figures idea.

The Imperial Guard had its own uniform regulations and was not bound to the Bardin Uniform Regulations of 1812.

Thanks for your answers.

The Imperial Guard had its own uniform regulations and was not bound to the Bardin Uniform Regulations of 1812.

Yes, you are right, but I was referring to Bardin uniform as a style of uniform (short coat – habit veste, with closed lapels, shako without cords, no sabre-briquet except for NCO and drummers, …).

So, regarding the 1813-1814 campaign in Holland (Maison's Corps), the question was: did the Young Guard wear the previous uniforms or the new ones (Bardin style)?

I think it was "pre-1812 style" cut-away short habit-vestes for the 1er – 6e tirailleurs & voltiguers. Then pupilles de la garde uniforms for 7e tirailleurs and gardes nationaux de la garde uniforms for 7e voltigeurs. And then "Bardin-style" closed short habit-vestes for 8e – 13e tirailleurs & voltigeurs.

See :
link

Ruchel,

You could almost ask every single question a second time about uniforms in 1815.

Imagine the idea of 95th Rifles in a Belgic Shako. Every British Light Inf Regt the same. Even the 28th. But much evidence for every single one, however horrific.

Dawson's book goes a long way to tell us that, without a time machine, we will never know. Even with, my bet would be….well yes and no

I had a look at Dawson – Napoleon's Imperial Gaurd – The Infantry, it seems that in 1813 the Bardin style uniforms were worn by the Young Guard which was almost wiped out in the disastrous Russian campaign.

As for the Brits, I cannot say, only that on one of the Mörner prints of about 1813 / 14 he shows Hannoverian infantry with stove pipe shako, best would be to ask those specialist like Cannaught ranger or dibble.

Ruchel

What do you mean by 'veteran' British Regiments?

Do you need other information pertaining the British regiments as a whole?

I will be able to answer you later on this matter. I have been up all night and I'm off to bed. But I should be back online in about 12 hours time.

I would hazard a guess that British units arriving in NWE directly from Britain would have had the most up-to-date kit, as they heard about the regulations quicker than units on foreign service. However, apart from the Guards, I'm not sure they would have tossed away unused examples of old-pattern kit any more readily than would those in the field.

Furthermore, a soft point of data here is Mercer's comment in his journal that the British infantry was the meanest, ugliest thing ever invented – as though he hadn't seen them before. Why would he have said that unless, to him, they had only just been invented? – seen in 1815, but not really earlier?

Pretty well all figure depictions of the Belgic cap are wrong IMO. Its main piece was barely taller than a traffic warden's peaked cap, and the false front was about 7" tall IIRC. They are almost always sculpted toweringly tall, but in reality were't a lot taller than a legionary's helmet, which seems to have influenced the Austrian kaskett, which seems to have influenced the Belgic cap.

Thanks again for your answers.

Regarding the Young Guard and taking into account Michman and von Winterfeldt's comments (based on Paul Dawson's works), I will paint the first six regiments of Tirailleurs and Voltigeurs according to the "pre-1812 style", and the following (new) regiments according to the new regulations.

What do you mean by 'veteran' British Regiments?

I think Graham's Corps included a 'Royal Veteran Battalion".

Do you need other information pertaining the British regiments as a whole?

I would like to paint several British regiments (1813-1814, Stralsund/Holstein/Holland) and I need to decide between ordering miniatures with stovepipe or with Belgic shako (or both, depending on the different regiments).

Furthermore, a soft point of data here is Mercer's comment in his journal that the British infantry was the meanest, ugliest thing ever invented – as though he hadn't seen them before. Why would he have said that unless, to him, they had only just been invented? – seen in 1815, but not really earlier?

So maybe some regiments wore previous items (stovepipe shako) in 1813-1814.

Maybe I did express myself wrongly, I would opt for Bardin style for all Young Guard regiments, regardless of what regimental number.

In principle and ingeneral, British regiments were due replacement of respective uniform items at intervals defined by regulation. Most items were the soldier's property so he wouldn't be disposing of anything until a replacement was issued, or it fell apart.

Changes to regulations could be circulated reasonably quickly. Availability of replacement kit to the soldier might be another matter.

False-front headgear in one form or another had been a feature of uniform headgear since at least the mid C17th. The extent of influence between the military uniforms of one country and another is always open to a degree of speculation. The Austrian kasket had been on the scene since 1767 (I think the Roman influence was more evident in the helmet that replaced the kasket in 1798). The fact that Portuguese troops wore the barretina and within 4 years of the British arriving in the Peninsula a similar cap was adopted by the British seems unlikely to be coincidence.

PS According to the Wiki article cited above, the 1st Royal Veteran Battalion served in Holland, the 2nd Royal Veteran Battalion and 8th Royal Veteran Battalion served in Heligoland.

PPS Cavalier Mercer having been stationed at home since 1807 would have had plenty of opportunity to see the new 1812 cap as and when it was issued to troops in surrounding garrisons.

Ruchel

I would like to paint several British regiments (1813-1814, Stralsund/Holstein/Holland) and I need to decide between ordering miniatures with stovepipe or with Belgic shako (or both, depending on the different regiments).

Seeing as these brigades were put together and not deployed until late 1813 and either came directly from Britain/Germany. I would say that these regiments would all have been in 'Belgic' Caps. The 2nd/52nd and 3rd/95th would have worn the light infantry cap.

Here's a good link.
PDF link

PS. if you are going to represent the 30th and 78th, both had their buttons/lace spaced in two's not 'ones' as listed/illustrated in many books. This is because they all got their info from Hamilton-Smith's charts, which have some inaccuracies.

@42flanker

Cavalier Mercer having been stationed at home since 1807 would have had plenty of opportunity to see the new 1812 cap as and when it was issued to troops in surrounding garrisons.

Well, unless it wasn't. If the new style was promulgated in 1812 but a cap was expected to last say 3 years, then the new ones would still be a novelty in 1815; novel enough for its ugliness to be commented on. The fact that they were withdrawn in 1816 does somewhat suggest that they lasted only until people got a good look at them en masse.

@von Winterfeldt

You may be right. I thought of it this way (and read Mr. Dawson as not contradicting my interpretation) ….

The 2e and 3e of each tirailleurs and voltigeurs were ordered back from Spain and were refit in Paris in early 1812, before any new uniform regulations.

The 7e of each tirailleurs and voltigeurs were created in early 1813 by renaming battalions already in the field (1er & 7e bataillons de pupilles and 1er & 2e bataillons de gardes nationaux, respectively).

That leaves the 1er, 4e, 5e and 6e of each tirailleurs and voltigeurs, all destroyed in Russia. These were quickly rebuilt in early 1813 with garde depot troops, about 2 battalions equivalent of surviving cadres and 5 more battalions of pupilles. I supposed it more likely that these would be uniformed from stocks rather than newly ordered materials of the new patterns. It is only a supposition.

Although by the above reckoning the habit-vestes would not have been due for replacement, after active campaigning in 1813, any of the 1er through 7e of each tirailleurs and voltigeurs may well have received replacement habit-vestes of the new design by 1814, or have been reduced to gilets and greatcoats.

But again, you may be right. I am only guessing.

@4th Cuirassier
According to regulations relating to the earlier regulation cap "The Felt Cap and the Tuft is to be supplied annually. The Leather Part, Brass Plate & Leather Cockade once in every two years."

Manufacture and supply factors allowing, the new cap might therefore have been seen, at home for instance, by the end of 1813. Whether remaining stocks of the cap furniture in store might have prompted continuing issue of the felt 'body,' I couldn't say.
(I can't remember when in 1812 the authorisation was published).

@Michman

Your guesses are much better than mine, and I applaud your keen eye for detail, for those units from Spain, most likely the old uniform coats were worn as with other infantry units transferred from Spain to build up the Grande Armée again.

@4th Cuirassier

No need to speculate on the duration of the caps. An extract of the Circulair Letter introducing the 1806 pattern states:
"the leather parts of which, and brass plate, are to be supplied once in two years, and the felt crown, and tuft, annually, as heretofore."
The 1812 cap was expected to last two years, because of the adoption of a cap cover.

I would say it's practically impossible for the troops to still be using the old caps in 1815.

[edit: to late, I've been beaten to it…]

DrsRob

[edit: to late, I've been beaten to it…]

At least you was in the race.

I know that this isn't strictly pertaining 1813/14 but I thought that this excellent Portrait picture pertaining head-dress would be of interest. Even though he's of the militia, look at his cap.

It seems that other styles were used. at least in the militia in the period of 1803. Is this head-dress documented? It got me thinking.

Thanks all, seems clear there would have been a decent number of Belgics around by 1815. I wonder if there was a reaction against them as more people saw them. Mercer's remarks about the Belgic remind me of my Dad's 1982 thoughts about the Ford Sierra.

@dibble. I wonder if that counts as a 'local variation'? Though now I note the estimated date the design seems really quite remarkable for the period, the peak being a rare if not unique example. Do I detect a faint line down the side suggesting that the cap might have a false front?

What I can make out is that the brim is a la' a top hat, the body of the hat slopes upwards from the back and a false front added. It has perplexed me! I have corresponded with Mike Warren of 'Ths Re-illuminated School of Mars, and sent him this picture to see what he thinks about it or if he has come accross such a cap design or a mention of it. But he too is stumped…

For anyone who hasn't perused Mike's well-researched site, here's the link:
link

To add a spanner, how many belgics might be worn with white trousers; asking for a friend…

La Belle Ruffian.

To add a spanner, how many belgics might be worn with white trousers; asking for a friend…

Parade dress? Probably all.

Just another interesting curiosity which also adds to my 'the 95th not wearing the cap badge in the field' theory, is this letter sent to a loved one from a serving corporal of the 95th.

The caption under the picture is mine.