"Had we got our TOE lists wrong?" Topic

I looked at our 1991 t0 2000 Russian tank division and the main tank is the T80 Perhaps not too bad you would think as its 10 to 20 years after the introduction of the T80.

However if we look at the minimum losses as collected by ORYX
link looked at 28 Oct 2022

we get:-
T80 Losses
152 T-80BV
1 T-80BVK
3 T-80UK
8 T-80UE-1
1 T-80UM2
54 T-80BVM
6 Unknown T-80

Total 225 T80

25 T-90A
4 T-90M:

T72 losses

201 T-72B
70 T-72B Obr. 1989:
19 T-72BA:
219 T-72B
33 T-72B3 Obr. 2014
180 T-72B3 Obr. 201
91 Unknown T-72
Total 904 T72

So even now the Russians have lost 4 times as many T72's as T80's 22 years on! Seems to me that the T80 was only ever a pipe dream with a few examples out to impress the west and that there never was a significant number in place.

Realistically our list should have shown almost all of the tanks to be T72's in th 1991 to 2000 lists and perhaps even significant numbers of T6(insert number here)'s. Possibly even T55's. Seems like Russia kidded us as well as Putin how poor the Russian army was even then and more so now.

Sounds about right. I figured the T-80 was for show and fielded in demonstration units and parades, the actual workhorse would be the T-72 and T-64.

Aren't the Russians purposefully keeping most of the T80s in Russia?

I think 79th is right, they underestimated the Ukranians, so why would they use the good stuff, when that would be needed in case of a NATO response..

Keeping the good stuff in Russia may have been logical at the start of the invasion, but at this point surely you would use it if you have it?

Unless they have run out of other tanks, there is no reason to.

Well, there is also the fact the Soviets and later the Russians had CFE to contend with. A lot of AFV were destroyed under the terms of the treaty.

Zaloga said they had 300 T-80s in GSFG by 1985, so I suspect it was always a case of a low production rate.

The Russians always kept tanks in their tank park past their "Use By" date. At the start of Barbarossa only 20% of their tanks would be considered modern (KV, T-34 series plus recently built light tanks). They had T54's in inventory until the end of the cold war.

Acording to Zaloga's Osprey on the T-80, the number of T-80s in Russian service peaked in 2000 and has been declining since. The T-72 is still in production. Remember the T-72 was designed to be easier and cheaper to manufacture than the T-80.

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So basically they were broke and stuck to a bit of an upgrade and hope that it will do instead like the west of making an overall better tank. All the clever stuff like Arena is missing.

PS Thanks Jenkinder6 for the links interesting.

M1 Fanboy, I very much doubt anyone destroyed their better tanks. I'd actually want proof any tanks were actually destroyed. The treaty basically said "get them out of NATO Central" so ours came home, the Germans shipped Leopards to Turkey, and the Turks--well, I don't know. But given Taiwan keeps buying up M48 hulls, somehow I doubt the Turks scrapped them. All the Russians had to do to keep tanks was ship them over the Urals.

For me "expensive with an unreliable engine" is sufficient reason to look for another tank.