Tango01 | 21 Oct 2022 9:31 p.m. PST |
"David Blight, Historian: This is the great myth of Reconstruction… that it was an oppressive set of regimes sent into the South to invent the Republican Party, using the black vote, running the legitimate leadership of the white South out of town and out of business, and putting Americans under a kind of oppressive rule by the federal government. Part of that whole story is also deeply rooted in this American tradition -- which isn't just Southern -- of localism, of faith in states' rights, that the federal government is an oppressor when it crosses state lines to create institutions, to expand liberties. And part of the myth of "Negro rule," or the tragic legend, is rooted in this states' rights reaction to the use of federal power. This has been at the heart of our debate about the nature and meaning of Reconstruction ever since. Was it truly a military occupation? You could argue, no, it really almost never was. The numbers of troops still left in the South by 1875 and '76 at the end, were tiny. And most of them were garrisoned in forts along the coast, never had anything to do with the enforcement or operation of the internal politics of Southern states. They guarded no state houses. They didn't even guard ballot boxes, which they should have, in most states by the middle of the 1870s. It really wasn't a genuine military occupation after 1868, in any sense of the term we've come to understand military occupations in the 20th century…" Main page
link Armand
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Blutarski | 22 Oct 2022 5:44 a.m. PST |
I'm a 100% native New Englander, born and educated in Massachusetts. I retired to South Carolina six years ago. Based upon the local historical literature I have discovered and read down here, the arguments advanced by Mr Blight and his colleagues concerning "the myth of reconstruction" are a gross and disingenuous misrepresentation of events. The "Carpetbaggers" were no amusing inconsequential sidelight to the Reconstruction period. They were directly responsible for a decade of political and judicial corruption, exploitation, thievery, theft, intimidation and murder. The federal garrisons were, by and large, not the direct oppressors; they simply served as the protectors of these corrupt political organizations. It was the "local militias" (armed by the Federal government, but controlled by the state Carpetbagger political leadership) that provided the "local muscle". It was not until 1875, when Federal occupation troops were finally withdrawn from the South, that the citizens of South Carolina were finally able to evict these crooked administrations from power. Interested parties may go here for a decent historical resource on the matter – link B
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35thOVI | 22 Oct 2022 7:26 a.m. PST |
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doc mcb | 22 Oct 2022 8:02 a.m. PST |
Readers might consult the chapter of Reconstruction in McClay's LAND OF HOPE, either the adult edition or the new YOUNG READERS EDITION. It is a complex and complicated topic, and very hard to generalize about. You can, I think, criticize Reconstruction either for going too far or for not going far enough -- but that requires picking one! Some Reconstruction governments did some good things, but some were also very corrupt. Carpetbaggers included scoundrels but also Union soldiers who moved south after the war and brought much needed capital with them. Lincoln's magnanimity was sorely missed. |
doc mcb | 22 Oct 2022 8:09 a.m. PST |
One of the primary documents that will be in the TEACHERS GUIDE and STUDENT WORKBOOK for LOH YRE is Grant's second inaugural address, which demonstrates how little enthusiasm the north had for Reconstruction. Trying to balance reconciliation with southern whites and protection of the freedmen was the challenge, and Grant and the north generally saw (correctly, in my view) the need for sectional reconciliation to be greater than a Federal imposition of equality (other than political) for freedmen. Bluntly, the interests of the white south were deemed more vital to the NATIONAL interest. And however much it offends our current sensibilities, that was the right call. |
Tortorella | 22 Oct 2022 9:23 a.m. PST |
Doc you make a good point in that last post about prioritizing reconciliation. As a practical matter, change takes time. Blight and Foner are generally correct, IMO, and provide a good counterpoint and reminder that carpetbaggers arrived as soon as the shooting stopped, as they always do, and that white southerners had plenty of local freedom as well. It wasn't all carpetbaggers and Yankee oppression by a long shot. There is not likely to be consensus here, I think, but a good historical discussion. |
Au pas de Charge | 22 Oct 2022 9:58 a.m. PST |
The "Carpetbaggers" were no amusing inconsequential sidelight to the Reconstruction period. They were directly responsible for a decade of political and judicial corruption, exploitation, thievery, theft, intimidation and murder. Perhaps the US owes these people an apology and some reparations? About this book: Hampton and His Red Shirts: South Carolina's Deliverance in 1876 Paperback – September 6, 2015 by Alfred B. Williams Not cheap and not easy to find. A couple of the Amazon comments accuse the pov of being white supremacist. I don't know that this is the case but I found it interesting that the book is only really readily available on this site: link Interesting that the site's focus seems to be in line with Confederate apologists. This book in particular caught my eye: link The Negro: The Southerner's Problem $15.00 USD by Thomas Nelson Page Originally Published in 1904 Reprint Edition, 2015 paperback; 199 pages From the blurb: …the author demonstrates the undeniable harm that came to both races as a result of the interference of the Northern Abolitionists in Southern affairs and the premature emancipation of four million slaves and their elevation to a political status for which they were completely unprepared. Premature emancipation? Sounds almost dirty. And then there is this: …pointing out that the Black man was not directly responsible for the woes brought upon the South during the War Between the States and Reconstruction Such a generous approach. Oh dear: link And this: link So nice to find a site brave enough to promote and publish the "true" history and not the marxist, abolitionist propaganda. |
doc mcb | 22 Oct 2022 10:59 a.m. PST |
The "loss of strength gradient" applies here. The closer to home you are fighting the more it matters. Restoring white rule was the south's only priority. For the north Reconstruction was one concern among many others and far from the top. Grant emphasized the role of railroads and the telegraph in tieing the sections together, and of course the war had been a consequence of the breakdown of national culture (with expansion of slavery, and the institution itself, atop the list of a great many other deep cultural differences (e.g. the southern sense of honor). Plus the influx of the new immigration gave northern WASPS plenty to worry about closer to home. And it is necessary, as Tort does, to stress the chaotically diverse history; there is NO general story of Reconstruction, but state by state, city by city, rural versus urban, upper south versus lower, etc. |
mikec260 | 22 Oct 2022 2:51 p.m. PST |
Not bitter, not worried, but the fact is that Unionists took my great great grandfather's farm in East Tennessee. Yep, he fought with 37th Tennessee, CSA. He was captured after Hoovers Gap. Just the way it was. |
Tango01 | 22 Oct 2022 4:04 p.m. PST |
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ScottWashburn | 22 Oct 2022 6:30 p.m. PST |
As I recall, the North sent in the troops to keep southerners from murdering black in job lots. 3000 were lynched in Louisiana in 1866 alone. |
Au pas de Charge | 22 Oct 2022 6:41 p.m. PST |
Well his sacrifice can be commemorated with this tshirt from one of the authors off of that site above who wrote that Secession was both legal and moral. It seems he has his own website shop with lot's of goodies such as this: Confederate Lives Mattered shirt: link I myself am seriously thinking of this Seceshquatch tshirt: link This one is the best, A southern cross shirt with "I'm offended that you're offended" slogan. LOL, who says the white power guys dont have a sense of humor? link There's even a confederate battle flag dog sweater! link This guy is awesome. |
Sean Clark | 23 Oct 2022 2:33 a.m. PST |
Aus pas de Charge…. I'm confused by your message. Are you highlighting deliberately controversial and dangerous texts for educational purposes or bevause you think they hold true? I say dangerous in the sense that read today by the members of the extreme right as characterised by those who were involved in the January 6th events books like this would stir them up further. The myth of the lost cause has been denounced by people far better educated than me. But i doubt you'll f8nd any reasoned argument duscussign it on the website from which you pulled your 2 texts. |
ZULUPAUL | 23 Oct 2022 9:19 a.m. PST |
I think reconstruction would have been different if Lincoln hadn't been assassinated. |
doc mcb | 23 Oct 2022 1:44 p.m. PST |
I agree. Still extraordinarily difficult, but better. |
mildbill | 24 Oct 2022 4:51 a.m. PST |
Missouri did not go through reconstruction and was better for it than the states that did. The threat of Federal troops allowed excesses. |
138SquadronRAF | 24 Oct 2022 2:21 p.m. PST |
The South was Reconstructed? Who knew? |
Tango01 | 24 Oct 2022 4:10 p.m. PST |
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doc mcb | 25 Oct 2022 5:21 a.m. PST |
What ultimately reconstructed the south was TVA and radio/television/Hollywood/Nashville, and chain stores, and the GI Bill. Which is to say, the south's economy and then its culture were integrated into the national system. Contrast "Dixie" with "The Wabash Cannonball." |
Au pas de Charge | 26 Oct 2022 5:36 p.m. PST |
Much of the South still lags behind the rest of the country in a number of categories. Reconstruction was bungled because one of the few who could've executed it well was himself executed by a son of the confederacy with the same sort of rash, selfish shortsightedness that mirrors just about every single slave state reflex from the Declaration of Independence until the Civil Rights movement…and beyond. Some people never learn. Case in point: link He has a dream? Somehow I don't think it has any goal in common with the original speech. This sort of cynical anarchy demonstrates a lack of contrition on the part of the designer. This tshirt in a store owned by one of the most popular authors from the Lost Cause website confederatereprint.com which in turn is the only place that carries copies of the "real history" reconstruction book posted earlier on here. Are these coincidences? It makes me wonder if we are dealing with history or simply using history as a beard to channel current anti democratic attitudes. Some of the terms of Reconstruction were far too harsh and others were far too lenient.
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doc mcb | 27 Oct 2022 8:40 a.m. PST |
It was a problem impossible to solve through political means in a short period of time. But the South today is one of the most vibrant and exciting and prosperous parts of the country. Someone asked Flannery why her stories, and southern literature generally, had so many freaks in them. She replied that it was because in the South we still know freaks when we see them. |
doc mcb | 27 Oct 2022 8:43 a.m. PST |
From Flannery O'Connor's 1960 lecture, "Some Aspects of the Grotesque in Southern Fiction"— Whenever I'm asked why Southern writers particularly have a penchant for writing about freaks, I say it is because we are still able to recognize one. To be able to recognize a freak, you have to have some conception of the whole man, and in the South the general conception of man is still, in the main, theological. That is a large statement, and it is dangerous to make it, for almost anything you say about Southern belief can be denied in the next breath with equal propriety. But approaching the subject from the standpoint of the writer, I think it is safe to say that while the South is hardly Christ-centered, it is most certainly Christ-haunted. The Southerner, who isn't convinced of it, is very much afraid that he may have been formed in the image and likeness of God. Ghosts can be very fierce and instructive. They cast strange shadows, particularly in our literature. In any case, it is when the freak can be sensed as a figure for our essential displacement that he attains some depth in literature. |
138SquadronRAF | 27 Oct 2022 11:39 a.m. PST |
and prosperous parts of the country. Well with the exception of West Virginia and New Mexico 8 of the 10 poorest states were all former members of the CSA. So I don't quite understand this comment. |
dapeters | 27 Oct 2022 1:10 p.m. PST |
Let's not let facts get in the way of a good narrative. |
35thOVI | 27 Oct 2022 3:12 p.m. PST |
Actually, According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the national poverty rate was 11.2% in 2021, the same rate as in 2020. These states and territories have the highest percentages of poverty in the country: Mississippi, Louisiana, New Mexico, Arkansas, West Virginia, Alabama, Kentucky, the District of Columbia, South Carolina, and Oklahoma. I see only 5. 6 if you count KY, but they had more troops fight for the Union. I would consider them, and others did, a boarder state. With the amount of people abandoning the other states and moving south, that will probably change within the not so far future. The growth in states like Florida, Texas, Tennessee, Virginia and North Carolina is amazing. Subject: Top 10 Poorest States in the U.S. | Friends Committee On National Legislation link |
Au pas de Charge | 27 Oct 2022 6:00 p.m. PST |
West Virginia isn't the South? O-M-G… "According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the South is composed of Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, Maryland, the District of Columbia, Delaware, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia—and Florida." |
35thOVI | 27 Oct 2022 9:22 p.m. PST |
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Murvihill | 28 Oct 2022 6:22 a.m. PST |
Before I acknowledge that poverty in the South (if we can successfully define what "South" is) I'd like to see a comparison of resources between the poorer and richer states. The south is not known for nutrient rich soil or mineral wealth. |
35thOVI | 28 Oct 2022 7:55 a.m. PST |
My comment refereed back to this post: "Well with the exception of West Virginia and New Mexico 8 of the 10 poorest states were all former members of the CSA. So I don't quite understand this comment." Only 5 of the current top 10 poorest states, were part of the Confederacy. That is unless you throw in Kentucky, and that was too short to really count. |
Au pas de Charge | 28 Oct 2022 5:49 p.m. PST |
Most of the Southern states have the highest crime rates, highest child mortality, worst education rates, shortest life spans etc. As an area, the South is in crises. Are there a couple of exceptions that contribute to inexplicable denial? Sure, like in Virginia which does well because so many people from the US government move to NVA. Someone mentioned migration but a lot of those moving South are lower income folks; although it is true they might be higher income than many who live in the State they're moving to. Current GDP growth by State can be a false barometer because a Southern state with a high one year GDP growth rate might need many decades of such growth to pull itself out of the drink. It all comes back to the same recipe for self delusion that the Confederacy wasn't a failed state because the Confederacy is a concept neo-confederates find attractive. This delusion persists in spite of the confederacy's apparent legacy of wreckage; apparent for anyone who can objectively analyze stats. However, these people just deny deny deny and come up with Tshirts about the confederacy rising again. |
Ed Mohrmann | 30 Oct 2022 8:46 p.m. PST |
My oh my…I was born in New Jersey – my Dad's family were NJ and Pennsylvania. My birth mother's family were Eastern North Carolina (not farmers or planters of any sort). I spent a LOT of time with each set of G'parents and heard a LOT of 'stuff' about the 'South' from Northern people who'd never traveled there. Same with some Southern people who'd never ventured very far from home. But I chose, following my term of service, to return to North Carolina when I got out because I felt that the opportunity for growth away from a primarily agrarian economy (especially in tobacco !) to one rooted in new industries ('puters, etc) was there for the taking. And so it has become. So speaking as one with a foot in each camp, so to say, both sections (North and South) had much to answer to regarding the events of 1858-1883 (read some political history NOT associated with the ACW) and then same wrt 1927-1958. |
The Lonely Salaryman | 31 Oct 2022 2:10 p.m. PST |
If the South is in such great crisis and so terrible and lags so much behind the rest of the country it sure makes it hard to understand why so many folks from north of Mason Dixon keep moving there and making everything more expensive. As far as ranking by state goes it's difficult to do that with the South, as things tend to swing heavily from one end to another rather than being in the middle, and the variance can be extreme from neighborhood to neighborhood, not just town to town. My family is considering moving back to Savannah from the Phoenix area, for example, and the public schools I'd be sending my children to are some of the best not only in Georgia but in the country. Some 10 miles away lie some of the worst public schools in not only Georgia but in the country. There's rarely middle ground. |
Blutarski | 01 Nov 2022 5:31 a.m. PST |
I largely agree with The Lonely Salaryman and Professor Mohrmann. The South has been going through an economic transformation over recent decades. The largest BMW factory on planet Earth is located in Greer, Upstate SC and BMW is in the midst of a further 2 billion dollar expansion. Michelin's North American HQ is in Greenville SC. Mitsubishi Chemicals has a huge plant here. Bausch & Lomb are here. ZF is here. Boeing has relocated to the Carolinas. Been to Nashville recently? Or Atlanta? Or Raleigh/Durham? Or Austin/Dallas/Forth Worth? Or Birmingham? A great deal of industry and business expansion is under way in the South. - – - Are poverty stricken areas unique to the South? Take a drive outside the Rte 495 belt in MA and see what you find. Ditto for Connecticut away from the coast. Upstate Maine has traditionally been one of the poorest regions in the USA. Been through upstate NY recently? Try Rochester. Visit Gary IN, Camden NJ, Detroit, Baltimore, St Louis. B
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35thOVI | 01 Nov 2022 6:36 a.m. PST |
Blutarski agree. Just came back from Florida. Nashville and south of the city is booming. Brentwood, Franklin, etc, growing in leap and bounds. Multi million dollar homes going up everywhere. Big business moving in in droves. Natives complain about all the "Yankees" moving there. Nashville is as bad to drive around now, as Atlanta. Florida goes without saying. I have seen the same in North Carolina and Virginia. I know many, building and moving to the lake areas of Tennessee after retirement. I drove through the back areas of Alabama and saw the same mixture of good and bad as I have in Indiana, Ohio, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Pennsylvania and New England. The south is not the same south of 30 years ago. I family was not in Ohio, I would think seriously of moving to Tennessee. |
The Lonely Salaryman | 02 Nov 2022 2:50 p.m. PST |
35thOVI The wider expansion of Franklin is a cause of great sadness to me as pressures are re-emerging (again) to develop what little of the battlefield has been preserved, after much of the 90's and 00's was spent getting rid of a Pizza Hut, a shell station etc. Such are the times I suppose. |
Blutarski | 02 Nov 2022 4:36 p.m. PST |
Do I remember correctly that there is a cemetery of fallen Alabama Confederate soldiers on the Franklin battlefield? Visited Franklin TN about twenty years ago – lovely old town, neat as a pin. But, even back then, I recall the area starting to be carpeted with condo townhouses cheek by jowl. B
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35thOVI | 02 Nov 2022 4:50 p.m. PST |
The Lonely Salaryman and Blutarski. The growth there is unreal compared to 20 years ago. I have relatives in Brentwood, Nolansville and elsewhere around Nashville. Property values there are jumping by leaps and bounds. Houses and businesses going up everywhere! Yes Franklin is surrounded. Natives are not the happiest about the influx of outsiders. This is why I donate to battlefield preservation groups, to try and preserve more of the field's lands while you still can. |
The Lonely Salaryman | 03 Nov 2022 7:51 p.m. PST |
Same. I'm very seriously considering maxing out my membership to the BoFT this year, to fight the dying of the light so to speak. I fear long term that Franklin is a lost cause. There's just too much money to be made. Blutarski- There's a monument to the Alabamans that died in the McGavock Cemetery. |
Blutarski | 04 Nov 2022 8:01 a.m. PST |
I am watching a similar sort of development frenzy here in the Greenville SC area. Farms are being transfigured into residential developments at an alarming pace ….. and most of the homes (no lie!) resemble military barracks more than homes. Somewhat dismaying. I've often wished that developers be required to study and observe architectural and aesthetic standards on some level. B |
Tortorella | 04 Nov 2022 9:11 a.m. PST |
Blutarski, The Northeast does not seem to have as many brand new buildings as the south. And the distribution of wealth is a concern, as it is everywhere. But the ten states with the worst poverty rates are still all in the South. And the northeastern states pay more in taxes than they get back in federal aid. Except for Maine. NY is borderline. Although compared to Kentucky it does not do that well getting federal dollars. This does not bother most of us here, I think, as we are committed to the United States as far as I can tell. And the needs of kids in rural Mississippi are real. We do get tired of getting pounded by right wing media, however. CT has many wealthy people but Hartford and Bridgeport are among the ten poorest cities in the nation. Distribution of wealth issues, often aligned with race, are the same everywhere. Same for New Jersey, the top donor state,tax-wise. As for buildings, it is an endless zoning and planning fight here in rural MA to keep historic towns from being swallowed up by developers. Vacation homeowners outnumber us in many places. Somebody always walks away with a big profit and leaves us with generic cluster housing in towns older than the Revolution.Lexington and Concord have long been overgrown. Yet we are not growing in population. |
35thOVI | 04 Nov 2022 10:04 a.m. PST |
A Technicality, but I would say only 5 of 10 are truly South by region. New Mexico and Oklahoma are considered South West. Kentucky Midwest. West Virginia Mid Atlantic. District of Columbia is just iffy, but if considered like Virginia, then Mid Atlantic. I am basing this on regions, obviously. That leaves Arkansas, Mississippi, Louisiana, South Carolina and Alabama as truly South. I would bet 1 possibly 2 of those in the South will change within the next 20 years. One would be South Carolina, the other, possibly Alabama. Just my thoughts. |
dapeters | 04 Nov 2022 1:48 p.m. PST |
I don't know anyone that considers Kentucky a Midwest state, my friends there will tell you it is a southern state. In another 20 years Virginia will be a another east coat State |
35thOVI | 04 Nov 2022 3:48 p.m. PST |
Yes some in KY believe they fired the first shot on Fort Sumter. They are surprised to learn that twice as many Kentuckians fought for the Union. I based mine on regions of This map. Subject: Regions of the United States – Studying in US – a Guide about Studying Abroad in US link |
Tortorella | 04 Nov 2022 3:52 p.m. PST |
I have to agree about Kentucky. I have seen the Kentucky Derby and that is not the MidWest! . I am from Pittsburgh and that's more Midwest to me. You need manufacturing, corn fields, football! South Carolina! These days I just hope they don't take Sumter again! |
Au pas de Charge | 04 Nov 2022 8:32 p.m. PST |
Wow nice website, love all the IQ tests they offer. It appears to be geared specifically for German students who want to come study in the USA. But it doesn't consider Kentucky a Midwestern state: East South Central StatesThe East South Central States, along with the South Atlantic and the West South Central States, are considered to be part of "the south." These states include Alabama, Kentucky, Mississippi, and Tennessee. This region is referred to as "Old Dixie" by several books. About whether Kentucky is in the South (I mean, aside from the fact that it is), even the white supremacy shop is certain Kentucky is in the South.
Just take a look at this Kentucky Southern Pride license plate: link I mean, if a Neo-confederate website considers Kentucky part of the South, who are we to argue? They even honor Kentucky's shadow secession government on this commemorative tshirt: link |
Tortorella | 05 Nov 2022 2:33 p.m. PST |
It may not matter, IMO. These issues may not have more than a few decades more to run as demographic shifts, growing diversity, and tech unravel a lot the norms we have lived with our whole lives. Clinging to Confederate trappIngs will not save them from growing less meaningful, except as history, to Asian, Latino and other immigrants and their descendants, I think. |
Marcus Brutus | 08 Nov 2022 6:11 a.m. PST |
Tortella, that is true of many places in the world. Immigration plus migration are upending historical traditions. Both the US and Canada are unique in the world in that citizenship is based on a civic understanding of citizenship and not race or culture (although there have are lots of forces in our societies who would like it to be otherwise.) In Canada, the French/English struggle is being overtaken by massive immigration. |
Tortorella | 08 Nov 2022 6:37 a.m. PST |
Great point Marcus. Hopefully history and tradition will coexist with new cultures. And global population has begun to decline. And….for those who believe, climate change will make the American South difficult to live in, while Canada may become quite moderate and a climate refugee destination. I read somewhere that good old Buffalo, NY may become a lovely resort city as early as mid century. |