"Spain or Russia? Russia!" Topic

You were asked – TMP link

Spain or Russia, which was the worst mistake for Napoleon?

78% said "Russia"
17% said "Spain"

Both! Either would've been manageable but both was too much, even for France.

Absent control of the Baltic as a sea line of supply, offensive operations east of Smolensk was essentially impossible …. no matter the weather or the actions of the Russians.

But, if he had weak points as a strategist or commander, Napoléon's knowledge of logistics and maritime warfare would need to be mentioned.

I think Napoleon felt that war with Russia was inevitable. Spain was just completely pointless.

Cheers,
John

Spain. It bleed most of the survivors/veterans of the 1805-7 campaigns the best troops Nap had. I believe he should have gone back to Spain where his Marshals were a disgrace and and beat back the British. Only then could he have invaded Russia bit by bit not in one campaign with a mainly conscript army. Well that's my penny's worth. War on two fronts doesn't work, ask Lee and Hitler.

Russia of course, no contest,
5 months of campaign of Russia costed much more and inflicted a mortal wound to Napoleonic France than 6 years of a peripheric secondary theater of operations exalted and exaggerated by the anglo-spanish national propagandas,
with Russia it was the beginning of the end while with Spain not even the end of the beginning

Both-Russia was the big single disaster, Spain and Portugal the ongoing "ulcer" with constant reinforcing of failure that compromised French strength elsewhere.

Neither, on their own and without the other, would necessarily have ended the wars.

With the loss of his veteran cavalry arm in Russia Napoleon was unable to exploit any victories, he was also blinded by lack of reconnaisance.
Actually I don´t think it is even a real question. It is like asking where the Wehrmacht bleed to death, France or Russia…

link

I know it's Wikipedia but it is referenced. The numbers suggest that the question is moot. Casualties were horrific in both theatres.

Russia was one campaign; Spain lasted for years and was a constant drain on the Grande Armee. It hurt the French much worse than Russia did.

Most Veterans were lost by the end of 1809.

I suggest that most French regiments that remained in Germany under Davout after Tilsit, as well as those that took part in the Russian campaign still retained a considerable amount of veterans.

The 'shortage' occurred in 1813 after Russia.

Interestingly, only about one-third of the Grande Armee of 1805 were veterans of at least six years' service. The most numerous type were veterans of 1799 and 1800. There was also a large portion from 1792-1794. The rest of the army were new soldiers.

Bretchel,

I disagree. 1809 were had a large portion of officers who had just been promoted from the ranks, men almost ready to retire, and large drafts of new recruits. Def more veterans than when the 1812 campaign started, but most veterans were old and fatigued. Pelleprat of the 18e Ligne, mentions in his memoirs that many were old and fatigued and the Ncos did not have enough experience to help younger troops. If they did not retire prior to 1809, the 1809 campaign took many of the most experienced.

Bretchel,

I disagree. 1809 had a large portion of officers who had just been promoted from the ranks, men almost ready to retire, and large drafts of new recruits. Def more veterans than when the 1812 campaign started, but most veterans were old and fatigued.

Pelleport of the 18e Ligne mentions in his memoirs that many were old and fatigued, and the NCOs did not have enough experience to help younger troops. From his memoirs, "Its officers left something to be desired: there were a few officers and non-commissioned officers fatigued by age and service." " I agree with General Pelet, our cadres were beginning to be too young; the nerve of our armies, our old bands of Boulogne, Austerlitz, and Jena, were no longer, or were in Spain." link

If they did not retire before 1809, the 1809 campaign took many of the most experienced.

Below is the 7e Legere officers coming from the Chasseurs a pied Velites. Only one man of the 10 new officers sent to the 7e Legere at the end of the 1807 campaign had any experience. These men would serve in the 1809 campaign; some were wounded, some would die, and some would keep serving and be considered the new veterans of the regiment. This does not include any new officers received from military schools or other transfers from the guard to make up causality for 1809, which were many.