"Is the Key to Victory Paradropping Vodka to Russian Troops?" Topic

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"More often than not, the tragedy of mobilization was fueled by vodka. Tearful send-offs at local assembly points across the Russian Empire often turned into drunken mayhem, with recruitment officers trying — often in vain — to control and subdue mobs of unruly conscripts, who'd ransack and loot local businesses, injuring and even killing local authorities. As one might expect, once armed with military weapons, disgruntled and poorly treated enlistees even occasionally murdered their superior officers."

"Such drunken insubordination at mobilization turned to drunken battlefield ineffectiveness against Japan. … St. Petersburg newspapers lamented how "the Japanese found several thousand Russian soldiers so dead drunk that they were able to bayonet them like so many pigs." International observers described the entire Manchurian campaign as a "scuffle between a drunken guardsman and a sober policeman.""

Somewhere on my bookshelves is a collection of Cold War Gone Hot what-ifs. A rather humorous one had NATO winning after airdropping lots and lots of vodka amongst the invading Soviet units. I immediately thought of that piece of fiction when I saw the title.

Sounds great at face value, but drunken Russians/Soviets have been known to do horrific things too.

Perhaps much better to send them one-way airline tickets to various destinations – Cuba, China, Venezuela, Iran, Afghanistan, etc. (yes, the last two are just for grins).

Cash for Kalishnakovs?

Gamertom, do you have the title of that book, please? My google-fu has let me down.

Being a frequently drunken UK Geordie, and having experience of drunken Scots, Irish and Aussies… Drunken Russki's With Automatic Weapons.. is not ideal! LOL! :)

Cash for all weaponry (rifles, MGs, tanks, IFVs, helos, jet fighters, bombers, plus a free ticket out of Ukraine.

Vodka always has been, even in Napoleonic era

Get the underground to sell them vodka the night before the big attack…

Maybe the cartels could send some fentanyl their way.

Good call Choctaw. Vodka laced with fentanyl … I like it ! That may be considered a WMD attack … oh … wait … the PRC/CCP is sending fentanyl to the Cartels who send across our open Southern border killing thousands of US citizens. Isn't that a WMD attack ?

Let's see, how could the US stop this WMD attack ?

1) Close the border tighter than the ROK DMZ …

2) Hit Cartel locations with cruise missiles & air strikes. Which might be considered an attack on another nation(s). Putin got away with it.

But I see the folly in those ideas. The very well off couldn't get very cheap labor for all their needs. So it looks like the US leadership is willing to let thousands of our people died from drugs, murder, etc. Because some who give big $ as donners to their campaigns. Get cheap labor …

Makes complete sense !

Sorry to go OT … but … just say'n …

Using history as a guide, I would be surprised if the Russian troops don't already have plenty of vodka. Perhaps more would speed an end to the war, I don't know.

Poisoning it is probably a crime, after all you don't know who's going to drink it.

"the PRC/CCP is sending fentanyl to the Cartels who send across our open Southern border killing thousands of US citizens"

Nope. The overwhelming majority comes through US ports in cargo containers and even just by mail.

No poison vodka, it will ruin vodka for all, including the Ukranians. And firearms and alcohol is a huge risk. Especially for these latest call-ups, who might end up shooting themselves more than Ukranians. Or is it stabbing themselves with pitchforks and farm tools?

Legion, I will tell you that in my experience, no leader I ever met in government was willing to let people die. We are stuck on core causes and issues, finding long lasting solutions and the need to keep this an election campaign issue for some. It is incompetence and bad decisions, but not willfullness, that drives the lack of action on immigration and drug wars.

My own ideas include a comprehensive agreement with Mexico to create a joint military/law enforcement strike force to utilize the latest tech and personnel to go to war with the cartels. First we need to designate them as terrorists. This is based on the threat they pose. We are in danger and must respond. Going after terrorists is clear cut.

We have seen what drones can do, among many other assets we can call on. We have the means. We have multi agency protocols and highly skilled agents and team leaders in the government. Let ‘em do their jobs protecting the country.

Then a multinational agency like the UN to address the conditions in the countries of origin, and for the traveling border refugees, facilities for processing and resolving status at safe points on their journey out of the hot spots. And not just on the US border.

Restore border forces to their old levels and find a bipartisan leader who hates politics to run it. Critical that this is a true bipartisan, not a party first poser. The current elected official in charge of this is not getting it done.

As long as this remains a political issue it will be allowed to continue in order to support the blame game. We do not need a wall. It's not medieval times. We need to fight the problems with the right tools.

Slightly off topic rant has ended. Time for my meds…and I am not joking!

I think the Ukrainians should modify their drones to drop vodka a head of their assaults.

I thought the whole Russian military ran on vodka. Planes, tanks, submarines, even their camp stoves.
Actually I (almost) never touch the stuff. I've heard bad things (anti-freeze) about it, even the "good" stuff like Stolich…
Okay, I'll stop now.

Callsign21 – the full title is "Cold War War Alternate Decisions of the Cold War" edited by Peter G. Tsouras, copyright 2003, ISBN 0-7394-3559-0. It contains 10 chapters with each chapter covering a different crisis during the Cold War. Each chapter presents al alternate what-if to history. The last chapter is "Red Lightning The Collapse of the Red Army" set in 1989 Europe. It is about airdropping the vodka. It's very tongue-in-cheek. NATO has a hard time switching from a defensive mindset and giving ground to going on the offense and gaining ground.

From the 1914 mobilisation:
"Such damning reports likely never made it to the tsar — as accurate-but-unflattering information rarely rises to the top in autocratic regimes. Since all of Russian officialdom owed their ranks and entitlements not to merit but to the good graces of the tsar, there was little incentive to deliver bad news. Or, as Russia's Foreign Minister at the time, Sergei Sazonov, candidly told foreign dignitaries: "In Russia, ministers have no right to say what they really think.""

Some things don't change.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Nope. The overwhelming majority comes through US ports in cargo containers and even just by mail.

And yet … CBP, LEO, etc. captures large amounts of the drugs coming across the Southern border … You see it on the news almost daily … Plus not just drugs are coming across but gang members, criminals beyond being an illegal alien which is still a crime, human traffickers which is slavery, terrorists cross, etc. Those alone are good reasons to shut the border down.

Legion, I will tell you that in my experience, no leader I ever met in government was willing to let people die.

I tend to disagree, If the US leaders were really concerned and not having an agenda :

They would shut down the border, complete the wall, add more obstacle, etc.

Stop having 40% of CBP etc. nursemaiding illegal aliens.

Don't give the IRS 87,000 new agents. Those should be LEOs, CBP, ICE, etc. most headed to the border.

Anyone crossing the border in camo clothes should be considered an enemy combatant, and sent to Gitmo.

IF you want to be an American do it legally.

Use USAF aircraft with USAF & Army guards plus LEOs to keep order to fly the illegals back to where they came from. Daily and in large numbers. If you are an illegal alien, you are a criminal and cannot stay in the USA.

The border has been out of control for 2 years now. It's time for more draconian measures. To regain control. If a country does not control its border … we see all the bad things that happen.

OK I'm done … let's get back on topic …

It's been over 20years since 9/11 yet there not been any really successful terrorist assaults (tons of domestics ones though.) Does anybody not think that various bad guys haven't tied to get across? Just connect the dots

"IF you want to be an American do it legally"

If this had been true from the get go this would be a radically different country and many of us would not be here today.

It's been over 20years since 9/11 yet there not been any really successful terrorist assaults

Some attempts have been thwarted, and some we will never know about. The US, NATO, etc. being A'stan and the US in Iraq assisted in keeping the terrorists over there. But if you want a terrorist attack on the US, AQ & ISIS-K have said they still want to attack the USA. So wait …

(tons of domestics ones though.

I don't think so, again these are a very small minority of the US population. E.g. The US Military Witch hunt proved to find very few if any, IIRC.

Does anybody not think that various bad guys haven't tied to get across? Just connect the dots

There has been some that alluded capture while some did get captured. Either is illegal and they should be deported or sent to Gitmo if they are a terrorist, gang member, etc., etc. Otherwise … again deport them.

If this had been true from the get go this would be a radically different country and many of us would not be here today.

You mean from the get go before and after the AWI ? Before the 20th Century ?

I don't think that is true at all currently. There are millions of Americans who got here legally. I think the illegals who escaped capture are still illegal. I highly doubt this nation would be radically different if many illegals didn't get here. If we are talking in modern times e.g. again the 20th Century. Illegals are currently a small minority of the US population. And yes … still illegal.

You will always have some illegals getting here. You can't stop or capture them all. But LEOs. ICE, etc., have to have less restrictions to do their job, etc.

Illegal is still illegal. Have you alluded to being an illegal alien ? Not currently of course ?

Legion, I only referred to leaders I met in government. We were in the business of protecting citizens.

I will say again that IMO, you must stop drug dealers where they live and work. The border is the wrong place to fight and the physical wall is just politics. You do not want huge masses of refugee people crowded outside a wall all the time, suffering and dying in the public eye. The whole thing would be worse than it is now. I won't repeat my previous post on this regarding options.

We need a new, strong leader down there to lead a strategic effort that tackles the problem from both ends and puts a response system in place that involves Mexico as well. Get the bad guys. We don't fight refugees. We help victims and we fight bad guys. There are plenty of ways to organize this. The wall is what people did a thousand years ago. That money could win the war on illegal drug trade and alleviate the refugee crisis.

All my opinion. I think we agree that something has to be done.

I only referred to leaders I met in government. We were in the business of protecting citizens.

Yes the gov't's first priority is to protect its people. That is clearly not happening.

You do not want huge masses of refugee people crowded outside a wall all the time, suffering and dying in the public eye.

Do you listen to any of CBP, LEOs, along border. They don't let anyone die if they can help it. They save many. But the graveyards are filling up with unknown dead. Who tried but didn't make it. IF the illegals can't get thru the wall, they will go elsewhere.

As I have said before, the Wall will channelize the illegals into the CBPs, LEOs, etc. waiting hands. Few bad guys will get thru. The Wall will make the CBP, LEOs jobs easier. Now they have too much terrain to cover with too few LEOs to to cover those areas. Amazingly the POTUS did let some of the Wall be built in AZ. But it was not very well covered by most of the media. "I will not build one more inch the Wall!", he said before and after he was elected. Guess he was wrong about that too.

The only way to get control is to limit the places illegals can cross. Get the CBP, etc., out of the job of nurse maiding illegals. The them, ICE, etc. back doing their jobs of protecting the border. Which in turn protects the American population from drugs, sex traffickers, gangs, criminals of all kind, terrorists, etc. How many Americans have to die from illegal criminals and the drugs that come across the border ?

If some high ranking politician's children were killed by illegal criminal or drugs than maybe they will do something.

Do you know the Cartels are sending drugs that look like Sweet Tarts ? Halloween is coming. How many kids will die from those ?

Get the bad guys. We don't fight refugees. We help victims and we fight bad guys.

It is like guerilla warfare in many cases. You may not be able to tell who is who. It is a fact that the overwhelming number of illegals who are not criminals do not make the requirements for sanctuary. Many of those are women & children … Any single male or female don't either.

The wall is what people did a thousand years ago.

Many think this an it is incorrect. As I said, just like setting up a defense in the Infantry. You put up obstacles and use terrain to channelize the enemy into kill zones. The same concept works for securing the border. But those are not kill zones of course. Just makes the LEOs job easier. As the border is getting overrun. LEOs need the Wall to channelize the wave. Just like water will move thru the past of least resistance. People and poorly trained soldiers do the same.

High tech devices like drones are great for finding those crossing but they can't physically stop them. Unless they are armed. And of course, we are not going to do that. And by the time the LEOs get to where the drone spotted the illegals they will be gone, scattered, etc. The drone, sensors, etc. should supplement the Wall. So now you have more tools to stop crossings.

Seems many have not listened to what the CBP, ICE, LEOs, etc. are saying. They turned their backs on the DHS when he went to speak them. They know what is going on. CBP, etc. told the new POTUS & his staff not to change anything along the border. Keep building the Wall. Let them do their job. They had it under positive control. More control than ever in the past. Listen to the interviews of the CBP, ICE, etc. But that was not part of the Admin's agenda & narrative. E.g. some want to disband ICE. But all that is another topic.

That money could win the war on illegal drug trade and alleviate the refugee crisis

Pie in the sky, we can't stop the drug trade, just severely limit coming across the border. The refugee crisis is a self-made crisis. The footage of the POTUS, VP etc. saying they want more immigrants. The POTUS even said once to some voter the US could take about 2 million immigrants. And the refugees from all over the world plus the cartels heard him. If you or anyone who doesn't believe anything I said the footage is online.

And to make clear what I say about dapeters post:

If this had been true from the get go this would be a radically different country and many of us would not be here today.

I'm not talking about what happened in the early days of the USA. The borders were very porous up until probably the mid 20th Century(?). So again you can't rewrite history. I'm talking about at least the recent past, i.e., 2 years and/or a decade or two back. The current situation is what I'm referring to. Not how many crossed the US borders for Day 1, until the mid 20th Century.

I only referred to leaders I met in government. We were in the business of protecting citizens.

Yes the gov't's first priority is to protect its people. That is clearly not happening.

You do not want huge masses of refugee people crowded outside a wall all the time, suffering and dying in the public eye.

Do you listen to any of CBP, LEOs, along border ? The footage is online. They don't let anyone die if they can help it. They save many. But the graveyards are filling up with unknown dead. Who tried but didn't make it. IF the illegals can't get thru the wall, they will go elsewhere.

As I have said before, the Wall will channelize the illegals into the CBPs, LEOs, etc. waiting hands. Fewer bad guys will get thru. The Wall will make the CBP, LEOs, etc. jobs easier. Now they have too much terrain to cover with too few LEOs to cover those areas. Amazingly recently the POTUS did let some of the Wall be built in AZ. But it was not very well covered by most of the media. "I will not build one more inch the Wall!", he said before and after he was elected. Guess he was wrong about that too.

The only way to get control is to limit the places illegals can cross. Get the CBP, etc., out of the job of nurse maiding illegals. Then get CBP, ICE, etc. back doing their jobs of protecting the border. Which in turn protects the American population from drugs, sex traffickers, gangs, criminals of all kind, terrorists, etc. How many Americans have to die from illegal criminals and the drugs that come across the border ? Before someone makes this stop.

If some high ranking politician's children were killed by illegal criminals or drugs than maybe, they will do something.

Do you know the Cartels are sending drugs that look like Sweet Tarts ? Halloween is coming. How many kids will die from those ?

Get the bad guys. We don't fight refugees. We help victims and we fight bad guys.

It is like guerilla warfare in many cases. You may not be able to tell who is who. It is a fact that the overwhelming number of illegals who are not criminals however, do not make the requirements for sanctuary, etc. E.g. economic reason in their home countries don't count. Many of those are women & children … Any single male or female don't count either.

The wall is what people did a thousand years ago.

Many think this it is incorrect. Which amazes me ! As I said, just like setting up a defense in the Infantry. You put up obstacles and use terrain to channelize the enemy into kill zones.

The same concept works for securing the border. But those are not kill zones of course. Just makes the LEOs job easier. As the border is getting overrun. LEOs need the Wall to channelize the waves. Just like water will move thru the path of least resistance. People, animals and poorly trained soldiers do the same.

High tech devices like drones are great for finding those crossing but they can't physically stop them. Unless they are armed. And of course, we are not going to do that. And by the time the LEOs get to where the drone spotted the illegals they will be gone, scattered, etc. The drone, sensors, etc. should supplement the Wall. So now you have more tools to stop crossings.

Seems many have not listened to what the CBP, ICE, LEOs, etc. are saying. They turned their backs on the DHS when he went to speak to them. They know what is going on. CBP, ICE, etc. told the new POTUS & his staff not to change anything along the border. Keep building the Wall. Let them do their job. They had it under positive control. More control than ever in the past. Listen to the interviews of the CBP, ICE, etc. But that was not part of the Admin's agenda & narrative. E.g. some want to disband ICE. But all that is another topic.

That money could win the war on illegal drug trade and alleviate the refugee crisis

Pie in the sky, we can't stop the drug trade, just severely limit coming across the border. The refugee crisis is a self-made crisis. The footage of the POTUS, VP etc. saying they want more immigrants to come to the US. The POTUS even said to some voters the US could take about 2 million immigrants. And the refugees from all over the world plus the cartels heard him. If you or anyone who doesn't believe anything I said the footage is online.

And to make clear what I said about dapeters post:

If this had been true from the get go this would be a radically different country and many of us would not be here today.

I'm not talking about what happened in the early days of the USA. The borders were very porous up until probably the mid 20th Century(?). So again you can't rewrite history. I'm talking about at least the recent past, i.e., 2 years and/or a decade or two back.

The current situation is what I'm referring to. Not how many crossed the US borders from Day 1, until the mid 20th Century. Plus the US only had 13 states on DAY 1 … Much of what we call the USA today was wilderness. Study the Louis & Clarke expedition. They didn't know want they'd find. There were no borders in the wilderness.

As I said, I like to think you can use joint forces and tech to go to actual war with the drug trade as an active terrorist group. And set up international way stations In Mexico to slow the refugee onslaught at our border, which recent events in Central America, Haiti and across the world have made much worse. Considering the state of the rest of the world this seems less practical than a year ago, I admit.

I understand what you are saying about tactical aspects of dealing with the current situation and don't disagree. I want to slow down the refugees father back, get them into smaller groups, and get international involvement.

One of the big problems is that the elected official who is nominally in charge of this operation is not commanding or planning anything that I can see. I well know what's it's like to be stuck in a no win situation with no confidence in leadership and no end in site.

You need resources and a commander, and some agency head to go to bat and get stuff allocated. Get a retired field officer or general with experience and give him authority to execute a plan that gets to the root of the drug trade and dislocation of these refugees. We can slow this down – before it gets to a wall -and relieve enough of the pressure to be able to secure the region.

So yeah, we don't agree about the strategy. But this problem has got to end and we agree on that.

We haven't even mentioned Canada and drug trade.

It never ends and maybe never will. But you can fight and slow it down.

I think a joint force to combat narco-terrorism is not possible. Too many leaders in Central & South America getting rich along with the cartels. We could use cruise missiles on the cartels but that would be considered an act of war.

My "idea" to stop the waves of illegals, drugs, human trafficking, etc., could happen with little involvement of any other nations. We had control of the border, about 2 years ago. The CBP, ICE, LEOs know what has to be done. But those in charge are ignoring the problem. AFAIK their agenda is different than the others who are protecting our Southern Border and American citizens.

Again … Regardless many will have to be sent back to their home country. Save for the hardened criminals, gangs, drug runners, human sex traffickers, terrorists, etc. But they go to Gitmo. Economic refugees don't count for sanctuary. Yep many dads, moms & the kids got to go back to where they came from. Along with single males & females. They are not technically criminals … they Are criminals for illegally entering our nation.

This has gone on too long, and it is because of weak leadership and an agenda that most Americans don't want.

We know what has to be done … just ask CBP, ICE, LEOs, etc. They had told the new POTUS and his admin. not to change anything on how the LEOs are controlling the border. It was no where the mess it is now … And even once the border is under control as it was. It is going to take a long time to round up many of the illegal aliens who have made it thru in the past two years or more. Sanctury cities sound be given NO federal funds until they let ICE do their job.

We haven't even mentioned Canada and drug trade.

Let's land at Normandy then drive on Paris.

The big hole in the boat is at the Southern Border … fix that first.

When waves of illegals see they can't get thru the Southern Border, and they will be shipped back if they do, they will have to make a different life decision.

It comes down to good leadership that has "we the people's" better interests at heart. They don't … again … most don't want open borders. The tail is wagging the dog …

Again, let's get back OT …

Agreed. Except I think the vodka thing may have ended while we were onto this.

'nuff said … moving on …

"(tons of domestics ones though.
I don't think so, again these are a very small minority of the US population. E.g. The US Military Witch hunt proved to find very few if any, IIRC."

I was think of our epidemic of mass shooting, not veterans, yet now that you mention it seems like a lot of the 1/6 crew were vets and then there was McVeigh

"You mean from the get go before and after the AWI ? Before the 20th Century ? "
Not sure it makes a difference, but there was an ethnic slur that use to be applied to one particular ethnicity, based on the notions that they did not have papers. So Illegal aliens have been some of the bedrock of this country.
Illegal is still illegal. Have you alluded to being an illegal alien ? Not currently of course ?
LOL I confess this country on occasionally makes me feel like an alien as it has changed over the last 40 years IMHO. No I am a descended from what was consider acceptable stock back 150 years ago. White, able to read a write, farmer labors and protestant (even though it was that "German" church).

I was think of our epidemic of mass shooting, not veterans, yet now that you mention it seems like a lot of the 1/6 crew were vets and then there was McVeigh

Note : Few Vets were involved on 1/6 … McVeigh was an anomaly … Don't drink all the media please …

but there was an ethnic slur that use to be applied to one particular ethnicity, based on the notions that they did not have papers

You mean W.O.P. ? Heard all this before. And worse of course … My Grandparents went thru Ellis Island then settled in Brooklyn. Glad they move away from there and to OH. Part of the "Heartland" it was called. Now the Rustbelt though.

So Illegal aliens have been some of the bedrock of this country.

Many have came to this nation illegally or otherwise before the US started monitoring it. I don't think we will ever know. But say since about the middle of the 20th Century it has been monitored a bit more IIRC. So, we do have laws about crossing our borders illegally … Or as we see now you have chaos.

I confess this country on occasionally makes me feel like an alien as it has changed over the last 40 years IMHO.

Never felt that way … even though again my Grandparents came over around 1905. They had papers BTW …

I am a descended from what was consider acceptable stock back 150 years ago. White, able to read a write, farmer labors and protestant (even though it was that "German" church).

There are many like your stock here as there are mine. However, note Protestants make up about 42% of our population. While Catholics make up about only 21%. link

I still don't feel like an alien of any sort … I'll always feel like an American first. And a Vet … Call me old fashioned …

Can we move on now ? To another thread … just say'n …

One-way airplane tickets to a limited variety of destinations, and a 6 month ration card for "free" vodka.