| CorpCommander | 25 Oct 2005 10:29 a.m. PST |
I am looking for basic TO&E for Chinese KPT (Kuomintang) forces at the Marco Polo Bridge, July 7th 1937. I know that they had uniforms that were very similar to the Germans who had established a cadre to train and equip them.
Did they have the same set up with 2 LMG sections per rifle squad? Did they have SMG's? The unit at the bridge was the 219th Regiment, 110th Brigade, 37th Division. All told there were about 400 soldiers. If anyone has any fairly definitive TO&E for these troops I would greatly appreciate getting that information. Thanks! |
| Mike G | 25 Oct 2005 5:18 p.m. PST |
May I ask why and I would cross reference if you can. Chinese documents of this time period and before can be very suspect. |
79thPA  | 25 Oct 2005 6:11 p.m. PST |
I'll check one possible source when I get home. If you don't hear back from me, I can't help answer your question. |
| tagonagy | 25 Oct 2005 6:48 p.m. PST |
The following figures are from "History of the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945)" at the outbreak of the war a chinese division consisted of:
10,923 men
3,821 rifles,carbines and pistols
243 grenade launchers
274 LMGs
54 HMGs |
| tagonagy | 25 Oct 2005 7:05 p.m. PST |
The following figures are from "History of the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945)" Which is hardly an objective source, but it's the only one I've got. at the outbreak of the war a chinese division consisted of:
10,923 men
3,821 rifles,carbines and pistols
243 grenade launchers
274 LMGs
54 HMGs
16 Howitzers
30 Battalion guns These numbers are almost certainly for an "ideal" division. The only Chinese units that approached this ideal would be the German trained divisions (34th, 87th, 88th) and all were stationed around Shanghai at the beginning of the Sino-Japanese war.
I doubt that the Chinese had their LMGs deplyed at the squad level. There simply weren't enough to go around. More likely is for them to have a "heavy weapons" company that could be deployed ar the commander saw fit. Usually a unit's heavier weapons would be kept away from the action to that they wouldn't fall into enemy hands.
The CinC of the 37th Division was Feng Chih-an (a little something that my dad told me.)
Ji Xingwen (not sure of the spelling here) was the regimental CO at Marco Polo bridge. He was killed in action during the Chinese Civil War defending Quemoy from the Communits. |
BlackWidowPilot  | 25 Oct 2005 8:39 p.m. PST |
<<The following figures are from "History of the Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945)" Which is hardly an objective source, but it's the only one I've got. at the outbreak of the war a chinese division consisted of:
10,923 men
3,821 rifles,carbines and pistols
243 grenade launchers
274 LMGs
54 HMGs
16 Howitzers
30 Battalion guns These numbers are almost certainly for an "ideal" division. The only Chinese units that approached this ideal would be the German trained divisions (34th, 87th, 88th) and all were stationed around Shanghai at the beginning of the Sino-Japanese war.
I doubt that the Chinese had their LMGs deplyed at the squad level. There simply weren't enough to go around. More likely is for them to have a "heavy weapons" company that could be deployed ar the commander saw fit. Usually a unit's heavier weapons would be kept away from the action to that they wouldn't fall into enemy hands.>>
Well, yes and no, AFAIK the KMT forces could be pretty catch-as-catch-can with their weapons deployments. Also, the use of artillery was often tightly controlled by the KMT brass and the various warlords. Artillery was regarded as a prestige weapon, and the warlords -and the KMT- were loath to lose any, so they very rarely committed them to battle! Also, the calibre of the Chinese artilery tended to be fairly light, mostly light field guns such as ex-Russian 76.2mm Putilov guns or similar, or more frequently mountain guns of various makes. Mortars were the most prevalent artillery weapon, up to 8-inch bore according to some sources. Mortars were also popular beacuse they were easy on the logistics… <<The CinC of the 37th Division was Feng Chih-an>> Any bio on him? Any info on his tactical and/or command skill? <<(a little something that my dad told me.)>> WHAT?!!! PLEASE explain… <<Ji Xingwen (not sure of the spelling here) was the regimental CO at Marco Polo bridge. He was killed in action during the Chinese Civil War defending Quemoy from the Communits.>> This entire period -but especially the 1920s up to 1941- fascinates me for its scope, diversity of armies and weapons, and colourful characters. Any new information you can share would be greatly appreciated! Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
www/metal-express.net |
| CorpCommander | 25 Oct 2005 9:23 p.m. PST |
Thank you so much that is a huge help. I wonder if the Grenade Launchers are for rifles or are 50mm mortars? I am going to build a section of Beijing and the Marco Polo Bridge and refight this battle. It should be very interesting. I have heard that the Chinese also had either a 221 or a 222 in action. The plan now is to scratch build what we need in the way of buildings and the bridge. It will be done in 28mm. Not sure what rules but I am excited to do this project! —Pete
corpcommander.blogspot.com |
| 79thPA | 26 Oct 2005 8:54 a.m. PST |
I found the book and forgot to bring it in, but all of the following is out of Nafziger's book on the Chinese army during the warlord period and WWII (don't remember the title, either). In 1936 the Chinese squad consisted of 13 rifles and a squad leader armed with a rifle. In 1937 the squad format changed and they added one lmg to the squad, however at the outbreak of hostilities with Japan only 10 division had converted over to the new organization, so the vast majority of infantry squads did not have lmgs. I assume the ones present in a '36 division were HQ assets. I have no idea whether your unit was organized on the '36 or '37 model. Chinese divisions were also frequently and significantly understrength. If the 37th was an elite division, I would think that chances were good that it would be a '37 model of significant strength, but that is nothing more than speculation on my part. Infantry battalions of both models of Chinese divisions had a HMG company of 4 guns. To help keep things in proportion, I believe a Japanese division had twice as many lmg and hmgs (more of everything, really)as a Chinese division. Hope that helps you with your project. |
| mghFond | 26 Oct 2005 8:59 a.m. PST |
I share your interest in the Japanese Chinese conflict and am currently building up 10mm armies for both sides using the Minifigs WW2 N-Scale stuff. Im always looking too for more info -especially on the Chinese. For the Marco Polo bridge battle I do believe the Chinese were wearing peaked caps of the old '30s style. As I think this unit was part of a northern warlords army not a Central Government elite force like the German trained forces were. I could be wrong though. Good luck with your project and would love to see pics sometime when you complete it! |
| BlackWidowPilot | 26 Oct 2005 9:49 a.m. PST |
Another twist are the specialized "Dare to Die" assault units armed with Mauser pistols, potato masher grenades, and *Chinese two-handed fighting swords!" Does anyone here know if they were present at the Marco Polo bridge? Thanks! Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net |
| tagonagy | 26 Oct 2005 2:37 p.m. PST |
<<(a little something that my dad told me.)>> <WHAT?!!! PLEASE explain…> My Dad grew up in Hunan During the war. As I understand, Chinese succeses during the war, especially during the first two years, were few and on a very small scale. So if a batallion or regimental commancer defeated a Japanese unit then he became a national hero. A nice example is Col. Sun Yuuanliang. During the battle of Shanghai, he and his battalion were cut off from the rest of the Chinese Army. Fortunately for him, his unit was next to the international settlement. So the Japanese couldn't shell his position. He and hismen were hailed as the 800 heroes and I think a street in Shanghai is named after him. Two movies were made about this event, one during the war and one in 1977(?). Getting back to Marco Polo: <I wonder if the Grenade Launchers are for rifles or are 50mm mortars? >
My guess is that the grenade launchers are mortars, but that's just a guess. <I have heard that the Chinese also had either a 221 or a 222 in action.> Chinese armor was really scarce. The Chinese had fewer than 100 armored cars and tanks in 1937. Most were destroyed during the retreat from Shanghai. |
| CorpCommander | 26 Oct 2005 8:20 p.m. PST |
To spice it up a bit I will probably have 1 AC for the Chinese. I will definitely use 50mm mortars. I will make it tremendously difficult for the players to use the heavier offboard artillery without cooperation. I don't know if the dare to die squads were there but I think they would add some color even if there were just one. My next step is to diagram what I want to do. I have a lot of pictures of the general area and many of the bridge so I should be able to recreate it. I am going to assume the Japanese opened up the assult with a shelling of the Chinese side of the bridge to suppress the enemy, lifting it once they were most of the way over its very massive length. Modern pictures show a meadow under the bridge but that is a result of changes to river patters instituted by Communist China. At the time it was a fast flowing river. I have Chinese Characters for place names so I should have a few correct signs. I am glad people are excited. It is part of a big project I am putting together for Historicon. There is supposed to be an announcement on TMP. I'll bug Bill and find out when its going up. —Pete |
| BlackWidowPilot | 29 Oct 2005 1:53 p.m. PST |
<<<<(a little something that my dad told me.)>> <WHAT?!!! PLEASE explain…> My Dad grew up in Hunan During the war.>> Wow! Has he been interviewed by any historical researchers? << As I understand, Chinese succeses during the war, especially during the first two years, were few and on a very small scale.>> AFAIK you are correct here; other than the Battle of Taerchuang (SP?), the Chinese were not terribly successful in stopping the Japanese…:( << So if a batallion or regimental commancer defeated a Japanese unit then he became a national hero.>> When the heroes are few and far between… << A nice example is Col. Sun Yuuanliang. During the battle of Shanghai, he and his battalion were cut off from the rest of the Chinese Army. Fortunately for him, his unit was next to the international settlement. So the Japanese couldn't shell his position. He and hismen were hailed as the 800 heroes and I think a street in Shanghai is named after him. Two movies were made about this event, one during the war and one in 1977(?).>> Wonder if the 1977 film is avainable on DVD…don't suppose that you know the title of this film? <<Getting back to Marco Polo: <I wonder if the Grenade Launchers are for rifles or are 50mm mortars? >
My guess is that the grenade launchers are mortars, but that's just a guess.>> The term "grenade launcher" I've found to be interchangeable with "light mortar" when reading about the 1920s and 30s. IMO they're probably light mortars of 45mm to 60mm, but could even be older Brandt 81mm weapons. The Chinese were quite fond of trench mortars due to their light weight and ease of manufacture, transport, and deployment…but IMO it owuldn't be entirely unreasonable to use some rifle grenade launchers such as the French VB system as well, as these were probably readily available through the Black Market via Shanghai until 1937… <<<I have heard that the Chinese also had either a 221 or a 222 in action.> Chinese armor was really scarce. The Chinese had fewer than 100 armored cars and tanks in 1937. Most were destroyed during the retreat from Shanghai.>> At Shanghai the Chinese committed their best armoured units. Two battalions of Vickers 6 ton tanks (Model E "Export" with the single turret mounting a 47mm gun and coaxial Vickers .303 in. MG) totaling 20 vehicles (16 Model E plus 4 command variants with identical armament and radios). Most if not all were lost in the street fighting in Shanghai. The KMT operated a real hodge-podge of AFVs, ranging from the above mentioned Vickers 6 ton tanks to Vickers-Carden-Loyd tankettes, Sdkfz 221 and 222 armoured cars, Soviet-made BA-6 and BA-10 armoured cars, T-26 Model 1933 light tanks (100 supplied constituting the 200th Division), Italian CV33 tankettes, and Monkey King-only-knows what else! The Chinese also made use of armoured trains, and improvised armoured cars on commercial truck chassis. Later the KMT began to recieve M3 White scout cars and M5 Stuart light tanks from the US via Lend-Lease. Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net |
| Major Grubbs | 29 Oct 2005 8:42 p.m. PST |
The modern spelling would be Taierzhuang, Leland. There was a film about the battle that was made in the 80s. As for Chinese afvs, there used to be an rough guide by Steve Zaloga somewhere on the web, but I've lost the address. |
| tagonagy | 30 Oct 2005 12:02 a.m. PST |
The movie is called "800 Heroes" and stars Brigit Lin. Taisheng Multimedia has released a DVD but it's in Chinese only, no English subtitles. Amazon has a VHS copy (with subtitles) for $90.00. I have my doubts about how accurate the movie is. For example, the chinese troops were all armed with M-14 rifles; the American troops in the international settlement are wearing M1 pot helmets. I know of two major Chinese victories during the war. The first and second battles of Changsha in 1941. Both times Japanese attempts to capture the Hunanese capital were beaten back. Changsha was captured in 1944 after a third battle. |
| BlackWidowPilot | 30 Oct 2005 5:43 p.m. PST |
<<The modern spelling would be Taierzhuang, Leland. There was a film about the battle that was made in the 80s.>> Thanks! Even caught the tail end of the movie on cable some years ago… <<As for Chinese afvs, there used to be an rough guide by Steve Zaloga somewhere on the web, but I've lost the address.>> Actually it was a full-blown article. I hardcopied it years ago (it's somewhere in my many files), and I'll dig through my links tonight to see if it's still available online… Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net |
| BlackWidowPilot | 30 Oct 2005 5:47 p.m. PST |
<<The movie is called "800 Heroes" and stars Brigit Lin. Taisheng Multimedia has released a DVD but it's in Chinese only, no English subtitles. Amazon has a VHS copy (with subtitles) for $90.00.>> Ouch!! Too steep for my blood! But the lack of subtitles on the DVD doesn't scare me overmuch…kinda like bearing witness to events while a tourist in a foreign land… <<I have my doubts about how accurate the movie is. For example, the chinese troops were all armed with M-14 rifles; the American troops in the international settlement are wearing M1 pot helmets.>> LOL!! Yeah, I can see this one is going to be full of *clankers*…;) <<I know of two major Chinese victories during the war. The first and second battles of Changsha in 1941. Both times Japanese attempts to capture the Hunanese capital were beaten back. Changsha was captured in 1944 after a third battle.>> That would no doubt have been a part of OPERATION ICHI-GO launched in 1944. IIRC ICHI-GO didn't stop until the advancing Japanese troops were informed of the Emperor's announcement of the unconditional surrender! Chennault really missed the maker with his vaunted idea of *airpower alone* being able to stop an advancing army…;p Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net |
| BlackWidowPilot | 31 Oct 2005 2:00 p.m. PST |
<<For example, the chinese troops were all armed with M-14 rifles; >> Got to thinking about this last night…the KMT did have numbers of Czech-made ZH-29 assault rifles in service. This weapon is a genuine precursor to modern assault weapons in that it was capable of both automatic and semi-sutomatic fire. It looked somewhat like an M14 in passing, but with a perforated sleeve over the barrel forward of the breech mechanism. is it possible that this was the film maker's attempt to simulate the ZH-29 by substituting the M14s? Do you know if the KMT troops involved in the Shanghai battle in 1937 were equipped with this (for the time) advanced weapon? Thanks! Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net |
