Tango01 | 25 Sep 2022 9:42 p.m. PST |
"Experts say the discoveries are "incredibly rare" on a Napoleonic battlefield and further excavation is under way to learn more. Teams found remains of humans and horses in the dig, which resumed this year for the first time since 2019…"
Main page link Armand |
42flanker | 25 Sep 2022 11:21 p.m. PST |
Good to know "A French army under the command of Napoleon was defeated by British-led forces, led by the Duke of Wellington, allied with a Prussian army led by Field Marshal von Blücher." (From July 13th) |
Gazzola | 26 Sep 2022 4:30 a.m. PST |
'Put an end to Napoleon's ambition to rule much of Europe' I love the way people think they 'know' what Napoleon's ambitions were, especially in 1815. He was the one who basically walked his way back to the throne and asked for peace and it was the allies, as usual, who chose war. And of course, there were no more wars after Waterloo! LOL Sometimes you can't do anything other than laugh! But a good post and a great find anyway and there will probably be more. And also a gruesome reminder of the reality of war. |
arthur1815 | 26 Sep 2022 6:13 a.m. PST |
Given his previous behaviour, it was hardly surprising that the Allies did not trust him simply to rule France and to remain at peace in 1815. They may or may not have been mistaken, but their reaction is understandable. If he believed that, after expending so much blood and treasure to remove him by 1814, they would simply do nothing if he returned, he was deluding himself. |
Tortorella | 26 Sep 2022 7:14 a.m. PST |
I don't think he expected them to do nothing and his past behavior informed the Allies decision. But I doubt he had any plans to rule much of Europe beyond France right away. He knew logistics. It always amazes me when remains still turn up and give us another bit of a window to the battle. With so much rearranging of earth and human activity, things like the mound, I always think there is not that much left to find. |
4th Cuirassier | 26 Sep 2022 9:47 a.m. PST |
I still think it's a bit much to dig up and gawp at someone buried only 200 years ago. |
Nine pound round | 26 Sep 2022 11:19 a.m. PST |
How are those not considered war graves? They'll be looking for forensic history at Tyne Cot and Normandy next. |
14Bore | 26 Sep 2022 1:38 p.m. PST |
Love to have them autopsy and figure age, weight, any heath issues. Reading Russia Against Napoleon and he has a bit on a soldier and he didn't make full hight so went to Guard Jagers, he was only 5 feet 4 inches |
Tango01 | 26 Sep 2022 4:31 p.m. PST |
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42flanker | 27 Sep 2022 12:40 p.m. PST |
How are those not considered war graves? They'll be looking for forensic history at Tyne Cot and Normandy next. Is not the difference that Tyn Cot, "Normandy" etc are dedicated military cemteries, whereas this individual has been turned up in the course of an archaelogical dig? The tone of the article reflects how unexpected discovery this was, given how few soldier burials have turned up at Waterloo and across Europe relating to 200-300 years of large-scale campaigning. Having spent three years digging up Romano-British graves in a planned archaeological dig, this is a different matter. Do we have any reason this man will be not respectfully interred after forensic examination? |
deadhead | 27 Sep 2022 1:01 p.m. PST |
We very much do have reason to fear he will not be respectfully re-interred. For years the museum at Le Caillou (amongst so much stuff of very dubious provenance, when you consider the Prussians burnt the original building with all its contents) showed the skeleton of a French Hussar. Worse though is the museum on the battlefield exhibiting the skeleton of the Hanoverian dug up when they excavated the car park. Dig the chap up, learn what you can about him and give him an appropriate send off depending on what you learn. Waterloo Uncovered cannot be blamed as they no longer have possession of the remains I gather. |
14Bore | 27 Sep 2022 2:33 p.m. PST |
I would be horrified if the soldier wasn't given a proper burial ceremony after. |
forrester | 29 Sep 2022 5:19 a.m. PST |
I remember the Hussar at Le Caillou from a holiday in 1970 On that same holiday there were skulls and bones at the museum at Hill 62 at Ypres so that was within living memory of participants. Both seemed ghoulish. |
Nine pound round | 29 Sep 2022 11:52 a.m. PST |
They may not have the formal status and statuary of an official cemetery, but they are no less of a cemetery for all that, and I would hope they would let it rest undisturbed. I understand that archaeology is a serious academic discipline, but we consider shipwrecks to be protected sites and prohibit tampering for reasons that seem applicable in this case. I think respect for the dead ought to trump our curiosity. |
deadhead | 30 Sep 2022 1:03 a.m. PST |
Could not agree more about respecting the dead. We all regard WWI and WWII naval wrecks as war graves, not to be violated. There does come an interval when it seems to be deemed OK to disturb them eg raising the Mary Rose, but even then any human remnants must be respected and re-interred with honours. Bones from WWI and II still turn up regularly, often by chance and sometimes by design, aircraft wrecks are found in swampland with crew remains. But, in every case, this means a DNA analysis, an attempt to contact descendants and a funeral in a military cemetery attended by their successor units. Not put in glass case like a stuffed horse to gawp at. That recent Waterloo example, the Hanoverian in the museum, is a disgrace. |
4th Cuirassier | 03 Oct 2022 8:34 a.m. PST |
The argument for disturbing the dead at sites like Mary Rose is that there's historical information to be had from the archaeology of the site. So while you may disturn what are in effect graves, it's not being done gratuitously, and you can rebury respectfully afterwards. There's no such benefit or justification in gain of knowledge for digging up the dead on the field of probably the best-documented battle in history. It's just ghoulish. |
arthur1815 | 03 Oct 2022 10:33 a.m. PST |
Except that archaeologists may learn something about the individual soldier whose body they have discovered, and that those discoveries, when publicised, remind us that it is individual human beings who fight and are often wounded or killed in wars, not simply so many 'other ranks'. Which is not to say that the bones of the Hanoverian soldier on display at the Waterloo battlefield museum should not have been properly reburied, with appropriate military honours, and 3D printed facsimiles of them displayed instead. |
deadhead | 03 Oct 2022 1:21 p.m. PST |
Totally. Exactly. 100% + Bodies of fallen military, whether air or land are dug up every year in Europe especially. Either by accident or a deliberate search, but the purpose is to grant respectful burial, with honours, in an identified grave. Research is fine too, but respect the dead warrior. Let Waterloo Uncovered dig up all they want, bless them, but not then let their finds turn into an exhibition of a soldier's bones (stress not their fault remotely) The battlefield museum is disgusting. You may notice I feel very strongly about this… |