"Russian way of fighting" Topic

The Russians used an awfull lot of artillery and prefered the bayonet over the bullet.Attack columns were in use. The skirmishers were not as good as the french.The infantry were more stubborn, but that does not matter in the rule book I use anyways, so I prefer to avoid that matter.
The generals were not as good as their french counterparts on the tactical level.
Would that be an appropiate description of the russian infantry forces?

It is not enough to kill a Russian, you still have to push him to make him fall

there is more glory to beat Russians than Austrians

The Austrian infantry throw down their arms, each soldier claims the title of Pole, he follows you loyally
The Prussian infantry throw down their weapons but pick them up just as quickly if they see someone coming to their help.
The Russian infantry lie down, let the charges pass, get up and use their weapons again

These Russians are being killed like machines; we don't take it. They are citadels that it has to be demolished with cannon

From where comes the myth that Russians preferred the bayonet?

napulon.com:
The suvorovian motto was '"The Bullet's an Idiot, the Bayonet's a Fine Chap' (pulia duraka, no shtyk molodets).
The Russian bayonet attack was fierce and well-known throughout Europe. In Russian military manual issued in June 1812 was clearly stated "The bayonet is the true Russian weapon and the push of the bayonet is far more decisive than musketry"

There is a lot about the stoic Russian moujik.

If he gets "extra toughness" in defence does this mean he is harder to get moving?

Should his test to charge get a -1 DRM or some such?

Russian stubborness: "but that does not matter in the rule book I use anyways, so I prefer to avoid that matter."

I want to caution against some of the stereotypes (e.g., Russian stubbornness) borne of Western or Western-European sources. Various folks tend to cherry pick information (such as Suvorov's rule) to support biased and frankly kind of xenophobic conclusions.

No nation, no people, no army is a monolith across time, and should not be treated as such. Russians have shown themselves capable of as wide a range of behavior in wartime, as any other group of people. Perhaps, as some of you have done, greater attention needs to be paid to nuances of military training, discipline culture, and experience – that's what adds meaningful historicity and actual challenging fun to wargaming different eras.

"prefered the bayonet over the bullet"
Maybe for Musketeers/Infantry
Not for Grenadiers
Clearly the opposite was true for Jäger.
I think you are just seeing a more clear delineation of duties/skills between infantry types than occurred in the French service

"The skirmishers were not as good as the french"
Low-number Jäger (regiments Nos. 1 through 19, or Nos. 1 through 26) and special huntsman rifle units were, on average, likely better than any French skirmishers. Jäger Regiments 27 – 50 and Grenadiers were, on average, likely equal to veteran French skirmishers. Musketeers/Infantry were, on average, likely not as good as veteran French in skirmishing.

"The generals were not as good"
Very debatable. And the variation man by man of good-to-bad generalship on each side was likely far more important than some kind of overall or average difference.

"If he gets "extra toughness" in defence does this mean he is harder to get moving?"
No evidence of this that I can recall.

@Aapsych20
I agree with you.

Dominic Lieven, in his book " Russia Against Napoleon" dispels a number of the popular myths about the Russian army in the Napoleonic Wars.
Lieven is an academic historian, with someRussian ancestry. He had access to a great deal of material from Russian and German sources when researching the book.

I believe there is at least one first hand account of a Russian Jager officer complaining his men charging enemy skirmishers at the drop of a hat.

Russia Against Napoleon, $13.99 USD on Amazon ebook
Which just picked up

as usual such an topic is complex, any quote about the Jäger officers would be of great interest.

Le Breton
30 May 2018 8:52 p.m. PST

The Russian "Учебник для пехоты" (Manual for infanry) published 1808 gave the following instructions fro the Russian obr. 1808 musket :
"at 150 paces [about 100 English yards] from the enemy is necessary to aim at the enemy soldiers' knees; 300 paces [200 yards] – at the waist; 450 paces [300 yards] – at the hat; 600 paces [400 yards] – 1 foot * above the head; 900 paces [600 yards] – at 3 feet above the head." The last two were meant to harass and disprupt dense formations of enemy troops and were part of the "repertoire" of Russian infantry.
* The Imperial Russian and English "foot" were the same length.
Russian jäger were instructed to deploy their chain and engage the enemy at 150 to 300 paces (100 to 200 yards) : the nearer when there was covering terrrain, the further when there was little or none. Individual experts, sometimes rifle-armed, were permitted to fire "sniper-style" at officers and gun-crews at up to 3x longer distances.
Expected effectiveness, firing on formed units :
- firing between 300 and 200 paces should result in 25% hits
- firing between 200 and 100 paces should result in 50% hits
- firing at under 100 paces should result in 75% hits

Suvorov in L'art de vaincre de Souvorof, 1899, p. 23-25
Le chef peut-il demander un feu roulant? — C'est de la bonne mise en joue que dépend le tir. Ici elle est mal faite parce que, fatalement, on se hâte trop ; mais, dans la salve de section, on peut la vérifier. Le feu individuel dans la bataille se produit de lui-même. Là, pour ménager les balles, chacun doit à chaque coup bien viser son ennemi, de manière à le tuer.
La salve générale? A la parade, si on tire, on l'emploie pour décharger les fusils. Dans une autre manoeuvre, elle ne sert que pour vérifier la mise en joue. Contre l'ennemi, elle ne convient pas ! il peut pointer et sabrer, pendant qu'on recharge.
Le feu des pelotons d'attaque ? Ceux-ci ne servent que pour la marche en avant ; mais contre l'ennemi cette ligne brisée ne convient pas, parce qu'il peut la tailler en pièces avec sa cavalerie, même si elle est peu nombreuse.
Le feu des pelotons en retraite ? Mieux vaut ne pas penser à ceux-ci ; l'influence de la retraite est très dangereuse pour le soldat, aussi ne doit-on jamais y penser ni dans l'infanterie ni dans la cavalerie.

20. May 1813. Battle of Bautzen. Freiwilliges Jäger-Detachement des Kolberger Infanterie-Regiments (Meinhold, Kriegstagebuch Schulz, S. 150):
Einige Russen, die hier zerstreut mit fochten, die äußerst brav aber ohne Umsicht und Absicht aufs Feld liefen und sich todtschießen ließen oder neben uns die Gewehrkolben am Bauch mit ihren starken Schüssen losdonnerten, so daß der Pulverdampf uns Athem und Umsicht benahm.

on the other hand Legler was quite impressed about the firing skills of the Russians at the Beresina, he was so impressed that he classed them as good as sharpshooters.

Jahrbuch des historischen Vereins des Kantons Glarus. Viertes Heft, Zürich & Glarus, 1868
Denkwürdigkeiten aus dem russischen Feldzuge vom Jahr 1812

Bei der Bersina
„Das feindliche zweite Treffen, welches nun gegen uns in's Gefecht kam, hatte kaum eine halbe Stunde sein Feuer begonnen, so waren die Polen bis auf uns zurückgedrängt, die wir in unsere Linie aufnahmen und somit auch unser Feuer wieder begangen – Wir erstaunten über die feindlichen, wohl angebrachten Schüsse; hätte wir Scharfschützen gegenüber gehabt, sie hätten uns wohl nicht mehr schaden können.
Legler, S. 45

„Was das Sonderbarste war, verloren wir bei diesem Bajonettangriffen beinahe keine Leute, wohl aber hatten wir viele Todte und Verwundete durch das Feuergefecht."

Legler S. 45

And again from the other line

Lieutenant von Hartwich, 12. Kompanie, Leib-Infanterie-Regiment, combat at Eckau in August 1812 (Schoeler, Hartwich, S. 57):
Die Kameraden, die bereits im Gefechte gewesen sind, und das sind fast alle, versichern, daß die Russen sehr viel feuern und ein beständiger Kugelhagel über die preußischen Linien hinweggegangen ist. Die Ursache hiervon ist, daß die Russen in der Eile nur äußerst selten das Gewehr an die Schulter anlegen, sondern die Kolben an die Hüften setzen und abschießen.
2 May 1813, battle of Großgörschen (v. Waldersee, zerstreutes Gefecht, S. 63, Anm):
Glaube man nicht etwa, daß im Kriege, wo nicht bloß ein den Gegner vorstellender Kamerad, sondern ein wirklicher, es recht ernstlich meinender Feind gegenübersteht, dessen Kugeln uns umfliegen, jeder, auch der im Frieden schlecht angeleitete, Schütze von selbst darauf bedacht sein werde, wo möglich mit jedem Schusse zu treffen. Daß dies nicht so unbedingt der Fall ist, davon hat der Verfasser sich durch den Augenschein überzeugt, da er, namentlich in der Schlacht von Groß-Görschen, ganze russische Tirailleurschwärme gesehen hat, von denen die große Merzahl ihre Gewehre mit abgewendetem Kopfe, den Kolben weit von der Schulter abhaltend und die Mündung hoch in dieLuft gerichtet, abschoß.

Also not the forget – for us non Russian speakers a must the two volumes of Zhmodikov about Russian tactics, available in English, fuöö of detail.

"The suvorovian motto was '"The Bullet's an Idiot, the Bayonet's a Fine Chap' (pulia duraka, no shtyk molodets)."

And why Suvorov was forced to say that?
The Russian way of fighting is sitting behind fortifications and fire with overwhelming numbers of guns and muskets. And run away when the enemy approaches. Sound familiar even right now? ;-)

Suvorov just tried to change the way of fighting.

Was there a specific ratio between Jaeger/Grenadier/musketeer bataillons in a 1805/6 russian division (18btls)?

Comments :
--- All regiments were of 3 battalions each, unless noted otherwise
--- Guards heavy infantry and Grenadier regiments had only grenadier-equivalent battalions – army Musketeer regiments had 1 grenadier plus 2 musketeer battalions – Jäger regiments had only jäger battalions
--- There was some variation in the divisions' organizations, as shown below
--- By regiments, "typical" might be either 1 grenadier, 5 musketeer and 1 jäger regiments per division – or – 4 musketeer and 1 jäger regiments per division
--- By battalions, "typical" might be either 8 grenadier, 10 musketeer and 3 jäger battalions per division – or – 4 grenadier, 8 musketeer and 3 jäger battalions per division
--- Not all divisions had grenadier regiments : 7 divisions had 1 army grenadier regiment and 3 divisions had 2 army grenadier regiments
--- There was temporary re-assignment of regiments when on campaign, especially of jäger regiments placed into avant-gardes

Russian Infantry Organization from 24 June 1806 to 13 June 1807
#x = number of heavy infantry regiments
--- Guards Infantry : Life-Guard Preobrazhensk (4 battalions), Life-Guard Semenovsk, Life-Guard Izmailovsk / Life-Guard Jäger (2 battalions), Imperial Militia (1 battalion)
--- 1st Division #6 : Life-Grenadiers / Kexholm, Velikie-Luki, Neva, Petrovsk, Pernau Musketeers / 2nd Jäger
--- 2nd Division #5 : Saint-Petersburg, Pavlovsk Grenadiers / Rostov, Yelets, Lithuania Musketeers / 1st, 24th Jäger
--- 3rd Division #4 : Taurica Grenadiers / Chernigov, Murom, Kopore Musketeers / 21st Jäger
--- 4th Division #6 : Dniester, Tula, Tenginsk, Navaginsk, Tobolsk, Polotsk Musketeers / 4th Jäger
--- 5th Division #4 : Perm, Mogilev, Kaluga, Sevsk Musketeers / 20th, 25th Jäger
--- 6th Division #6 : Kostroma, Nizovsk, Reval, Vilna, Volhynia, Staryi-Oskol Musketeers / 3rd Jäger
--- 7th Division #6 : Yekaterinoslav Grenadiers / Vladimir, Pskov, Azov, Voronezh, Moscow Musketeers / 5th Jäger
--- 8th Division #6 : Moscow Grenadiers / Viborg, Schlüsselburg, Old Ingermanland, Archangel, Podolia Musketeers / 7th Jäger
--- 9th Division #7 : Astrakhan Grenadiers / Tambov, Orel, Ukraine, Crimea, Penza, Galich Musketeers / 10th Jäger
--- 10th Division #6 : Kiev Grenadiers / Ryazhsk, Yaroslavl, Bryansk, Kursk, Vyatka Musketeers / 6th Jäger
--- 11th Division #6 : Little Russia, Siberia Grenadiers / Odessa, Olonets, Apsheron, Nasheburg Musketeers /11th Jäger
--- 12th Division #6 : Phanagoria Grenadiers / New Ingermanland, Narva, Novgorod, Smolensk, Butyrsk Musketeers / 8th Jäger
--- 13th Division #5 : Estonia, Ladoga, Poltava, Nizhni-Novgorod, Aleksopol Musketeers / 12th, 22nd Jäger
--- 14th Division #4 : Belozersk, Ryazan, Uglich, Sofiya Musketeers / 23rd, 26th Jäger
--- 15th Division #4 : Kozlov, Vitebsk, Kura, Kolyvan Musketeers / 13th, 14th Jäger
--- 16th Division #4 : Petrovsk, Libau, Kamchatka, Mingrelia Musketeers / 27th, 28th Jäger
--- 17th Division #4 : Villmanstrand, Brest, Kremenchug, Minsk Musketeers / 30th, 31st Jäger
--- 18th Division #4 : Tambov, Yakutsk, Nyslott, Okhotsk Musketeers / 29th, 32nd Jäger
--- 19th Division [1] #5 : Kazan, Suzdal, Vologda, Belev, Sevastopol Musketeers / 16th, 17th Jäger
--- 20th Division [1] #6 : Kherson, Caucasus Grenadiers / Kabarda, Troitsk, Tiflis, Saratov Musketeers / 9th, 15th Jäger
--- Orenburg Inspection : Rylsk, Ufa, Yekaterinburg Musketeers
--- Siberia Inspection : Shirvan, Tomsk, Selenginsk Musketeers / 18th, 19th Jäger

[1] named "Caucasus Inspection" until February 1807

================================

Russian Infantry Organization from 13 June 1807 to 5 April 1809
all regiments of 3 battalions each, unless noted otherwise
#x = number of heavy infantry regiments
--- 1st Division #6 : Life-Guard Preobrazhensk (4 battalions), Life-Guard Semenovsk, Life-Guard Izmailovsk / Kexholm, Pernau Musketeers / Life-Guard Jäger (2 battalions), Life-Guard Imperial Militia [1] (1 battalion)
--- 2nd Division #5 : Saint-Petersburg, Pavlovsk Grenadiers / Rostov, Yelets, Lithuania Musketeers / 1st, 24th Jäger
--- 3rd Division #4 : Taurica Grenadiers / Chernigov, Murom, Kopore Musketeers / 21st Jäger
--- 4th Division #6 : Dniester, Tula, Tenginsk, Navaginsk, Tobolsk, Polotsk Musketeers / 4th Jäger
--- 5th Division #4 : Perm, Mogilev, Kaluga, Sevsk Musketeers / 20th, 25th Jäger
--- 6th Division #5 : Kostroma, Nizovsk, Reval, Vilna, Volhynia Musketeers / 3rd Jäger
--- 7th Division #6 : Yekaterinoslav Grenadiers / Vladimir, Pskov, Azov, Voronezh, Moscow Musketeers / 5th Jäger
--- 8th Division #5 : Moscow Grenadiers / Schlüsselburg, Old Ingermanland, Archangel, Podolia Musketeers / 7th Jäger
--- 9th Division [4] #6/#7 : Astrakhan Grenadiers / Tambov, Orel, Ukraine, Crimea, Galich, Bialystok Musketeers / 10th Jäger
--- 10th Division #5 : Kiev Grenadiers / Ryazhsk, Yaroslavl, Bryansk, Kursk Musketeers / 6th Jäger
--- 11th Division #5 : Little Russia, Siberia Grenadiers / Odessa, Apsheron, Nasheburg Musketeers /11th Jäger
--- 12th Division #5 : Phanagoria Grenadiers / New Ingermanland, Narva, Smolensk, Butyrskii Musketeers / 8th Jäger
--- 13th Division #5 : Estonia, Ladoga, Poltava, Nizhni-Novgorod, Aleksopol Musketeers / 12th, 22nd Jäger
--- 14th Division #4 : Belozersk, Ryazan, Uglich, Sofiya Musketeers / 23rd, 26th Jäger
--- 15th Division #4 : Kozlov, Vitebsk, Kura, Kolyvan Musketeers / 13th, 14th Jäger
--- 16th Division #4 : Petrovsk, Kamchatka, Novgorod, Mingrelia Musketeers / 27th, 28th Jäger
--- 17th Division #4 : Villmanstrand, Brest, Kremenchug, Minsk Musketeers / 30th, 31st Jäger
--- 18th Division #4 : Tambov, Yakutsk, Nyslott, Okhotsk Musketeers / 32nd Jäger
--- 19th Division #5 : Kazan, Suzdal, Vologda, Belev, Sevastopol Musketeers / 16th, 17th Jäger
--- 20th Division #6 : Kherson, Caucasus Grenadiers / Kabarda, Troitsk, Tiflis, Saratov Musketeers / 9th, 15th Jäger
--- 21st Division #4 : Velikie-Luki, Neva, Petrovsk, Libau, Musketeers / 2nd Jäger
--- 22nd Division #5 : Vyatka, Staryi-Oskol, Olonets, Viborg, Penza Musketeers / 29th Jäger
--- 23rd Division [2] #3 : Rylsk, Ufa, Yekaterinburg Musketeers
--- 24th Division [3] #3 : Shirvan, Tomsk, Selenginsk Musketeers / 18th, 19th Jäger

[1] entered the Life-Guards on 22 January 1808
[2] named "Orenburg Inspection" until February 1808
[3] named "Siberia Inspection" until February 1808
[4] Bialystok Musketeers added on 12 August 1808

See : link

Merci Bien!

You asked about "divisions" and about 1805. The Russians were using their older "inspection" system at that time. Inspections were geographic areas for recruitment and casernes. Inspections also included garrison and cavalry units (not shown below). Tactical commands/formations were created upon entering into a campaign.

Comments :
--- All regiments were of 3 battalions each, unless noted otherwise
--- Guards heavy infantry and army Grenadier regiments had only grenadier-equivalent battalions – army Musketeer regiments had 1 grenadier plus 2 musketeer battalions – Jäger regiments had only jäger battalions
--- Per establishment, jäger battalions were about 30% smaller than heavy infantry battalions
--- Not all inspections had grenadier regiments : 6 inspections had no army grenadier regiments, 3 inspections had 1 army grenadier regiment and 5 inspections had 2 army grenadier regiments
--- There was substantial variation in the inspections' organizations, as shown below
--- #x = number of heavy infantry regiments

Russian Infantry Organization from 29 August 1805 to 4 May 1806
--- Guards Infantry #3 : Life-Guard Preobrazhensk (4 battalions), Life-Guard Semenovsk, Life-Guard Izmailovsk / Life-Guard Jäger (2 battalions)
--- Finland Inspection #3 : Velikie-Luki, Neva, Ryazan Musketeers / 1st, 2nd Jäger
--- Saint-Petersburg Inspection #8 : Life-Grenadier, Pavlovsk Grenadiers / Yelets, Kexholm, Belozersk, Tenginsk, Lithuania, Petrovsk Musketeers / 20th Jäger
--- Livonia Inspection #11 : Saint-Petersburg, Taurica Grenadiers / Sevsk, Sofiya, Odessa, Kaluga, Reval, Tobolsk, Dnieper, Kopore, Chernigov Musketeers / 3rd Jäger
--- Lithuania Inspection #10 : Yekaterinoslav Grenadiers / Tula, Pskov, Murom, Mogilev, Kostroma, Rostov, Nizovsk, Volhynia, Archangel Musketeers / 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th Jäger
--- Brest Inspection #8 : Old Ingermanland, Ryazhsk, Viborg, Apsheron, Penza, Vilna, Podolia, Azov Musketeers / 8th Jäger
--- Smolensk Inspection #7 : Moscow, Phanagoria Grenadiers / Polotsk, Perm, Uglich, Kursk, Voronezh Musketeers
--- Moscow Inspection #10 : Astrakhan Grenadiers / Navaginsk, Tambov, Ukraine, Schlüsselburg, Nasheburg, Orel, Staryi-Oskol, Olonets, Kura Musketeers
--- Kiev Inspection #7 : Moscow, Butyrskii, Kolyvan, Novgorod, Vyatka, Narva, Poltava Musketeers
--- Ukraine Inspection #6 : Little Russia, Kiev Grenadiers / Estonia, Smolensk, Galich, Bryansk Musketeers
--- Dniester Inspection #10 : Kherson, Siberia Grenadiers / Ladoga, Vladimir, Crimea, New Ingermanland, Aleksopol, Kozlov, Yaroslavl, Nizhni-Novgorod Musketeers / 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 22nd Jäger
--- Crimea Inspection #4 : Belev, Sevastopol, Troitsk, Vitebsk Musketeers / 14th, 15th Jäger
--- Caucasus Inspection #6 : Caucasus Grenadiers / Suzdal, Tiflis, Karbarda, Vologda, Saratov Musketeers / 16th, 17th, 21st Jäger
--- Orenburg Inspection #3 : Rylsk, Ufa, Yekaterinburg Musketeers
--- Siberia Inspection #3 : Shirvan, Tomsk, Selenginsk Musketeers / 18th, 19th Jäger

My son once said the Russian tactic was to work on the basis you would run out of musket balls before they ran out of men…

One of the reasons for the large employment of artillery by the Russians (far larger than the French) might have been for their inherent inaccuracy that needed more pieces to make an impression.

Russian artillery employment was not noted for its skill and it still isn't.