"Some ideas never get old" Topic
11 Posts
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UshCha | 25 Aug 2022 5:40 a.m. PST |
I was pondering today after some poster was raving about having been a gamer for over 50 years like me; about what ideas have stood the test of time,at from my prospective. Three things came to mind all surprisingly for me about Minis. My first ever book on warg ames not History was Featherstone's war Games. In there was Lionel Tarr's Moscow game photos. In them were carboard tower blocks with no windows both practical, no windows you could put figures in and they were ascetically pleasing: few building from WW2 on had intact windows. As a Kid I never had the space to store such things but there conception never left my mind. Many many years later with the rise of computers I found I could do the same but store them flat, but the idea to me was timeless, Tarr had got it right all those years ago. The second came form again Featherstone's Advanced wargames. Pictures, of I think a Spanish war gamer's terrain with Hex blocks. I finally, as an adult, built my own from Cork tiles laboriously cut up by hand and with one advance, the tops were treated with "flock" of sand mixed with colored PVA. Then came the revolution (for me) Hexon II terrain the ultra Modern form, using modern technology but the idea remains the same timeless genius.
Finally a much more modern example probably merely 25 years ago. At the time of WRG 1925 to 1950 and for me 6mm. Troops laying down part of a cast base. Simple cheap, credible, only fools stand up for long on an active battlefield (WW2 and on). Come the rise of the 3D printer and 1/144 and it was time to resurrect the act of genius. It's just a different medium and improved really only as you can mix and match weapons on a base but the idea is agin timeless. Interestingly the rules of the period have long since become antique relics for me, all superseded by better and faster mechanics, leaving no legacy. What strikes you as ideas that have stood the test of time? |
Wolfhag | 25 Aug 2022 6:17 a.m. PST |
I like the hexes too:
Wolfhag |
Garth in the Park | 25 Aug 2022 6:58 a.m. PST |
Hexes are interesting. From a graphic design standpoint, they're difficult and inefficient uses of space. But – I may be wrong about this – they're the largest polyhedron you can use in a consistent 2D pattern, with something close to equal distance in all directions. The earliest wargames were square gridded, like "Tactics II." Very easy to design, but makes for some awkward Pythagorean problems when using diagonals. |
UshCha | 25 Aug 2022 7:50 a.m. PST |
Garth in the Park. I only use them for creating hills. Other features roads, rivers villages are all overlayed and are most certainly not hex based, they do not do it for me, matching to a map is very poor for linear features. We still use rulers. The hex we use are about 100mm AF, this keeps the bit count reasonable, a 6 by 6ft board approx. is 324 hex. The base is laid in 12 hex groups so quick to lay and it gives a reasonable compromise on detail vs layout time. A 1/144 tank is about 1 hex flat long so not a bad detail limit. The slope of the 16mm tall hex is about 1 in 3 (tan) to about 1 in 4 so the models stand up reasonably. High Hills obviously have very long slopes but its always a compromise. The original system used a stepped system as did my own first system. At one time stepped systems were more of a war games staple than they are now. However there were both practical and aesthetic issues with steps which are eliminated with slope hex's, although at a significant cost in bit count. However we consider its more than worth the extra. It does surprise me that hex terrain has never been that popular. Geo Hex and others seem to have gone west although some systems had far to small hexes for them to be useful to us. Square terrain board have been around longer perhaps but to me it was never a real innovation. Stackable square hex is possible but to me its a compromise too far. hence the original to me has stood out a timeless solution. |
clibinarium | 25 Aug 2022 9:29 a.m. PST |
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UshCha | 25 Aug 2022 10:54 a.m. PST |
clibinarium – suckered I watchedall, it worse still I enjoyed it! Thanks |
clibinarium | 27 Aug 2022 6:19 a.m. PST |
The guy's channel is a rabbit hole I fell down last week, and while I could do without the rhyming, his videos are generally pretty interesting. The fact that I saw this video the day before I saw this thread is one of those little serendipities. |
Blutarski | 27 Aug 2022 1:40 p.m. PST |
If you want to see a noteworthy example of OCD scenery construction, go the the Little Wars TV channel on YouTube and check out their WW2 Malta wargame. Bruce Weigle is the alarmingly crazy mastermind responsible for the Malta scenery. His only concession to convenience and practicality is that whatever he builds has to fit into his station wagon. He does magnificent scenery work, especially in 6mm. If you run across him at any of the HMGS cons, take the opportunity of playing in one of his games (19thC European Horse & Musket is a favorite of his). B |
UshCha | 28 Aug 2022 2:35 a.m. PST |
Blutarski its a matert of chioce, really this thread is about the old ideas that srtood the test of time (for me). Too much of modern terrain compromises practicality for art work . While this is fine for some its not a compromise I am interested in. Same with modern figures the detail is far more than I would ever want to paint. To me excessively painted figures are pointless if you only breifly scanned on a battlefield some 4 ft away, again its perhaps a shift for some of the priorities of the game to more about art work than was even possible years ago. |
Wolfhag | 28 Aug 2022 12:33 p.m. PST |
I'll have to agree with UshCha. I'm not a model builder but I have been given a nice set of terrain and buildings for desert and country settings that are pre-painted and in various stages of destruction as shown in the picture above. I have a large set of micro armor that I purchased that was already painted and 1/144 scale WWII tanks pre-painted. I have a good friend that is really into 15mm miniatures and detailed painting and he's very good. He was showing me his latest work and the "realistic" paint job. I admired it and than said, "You know how to make this really look realistic?" and then I put it on the floor and acted like I was going to stomp on it and he freaked out. Wolfhag |
Blutarski | 28 Aug 2022 4:18 p.m. PST |
Hi UshCha, I think that you would find Mr Weigle's approach considerably more appealing than you might otherwise believe. As I previously mentioned, Bruce is a great devotee of 19thc European Horse & Musket warfare. I first encountered Bruce at an HMGS convention when I participated in his replay of the Battle of Custoza. I was highly impressed by his huge scenery layout, which was scaled quite closely to the 6mm troops being used. It literally looked like a model railroad HO scale topographical aerial survey of the battle area. I then made the mistake of inquiring about his approach to the scenery layout, which took a half-hour lunch for him to explain. it started out with him being stationed in Italy. First he tracked down as many original 19thc maps of the battle area as he could find. Then he procured modern 20thc topographical maps and transferred the 19th century towns, road nets, forest areas, cultivated ares, swamps, streams, rivers, ponds and lakes onto the modern map. He also arranged an aerial survey of the region for the sake of good order. He carefully hand-sculpted the topography from huge thick foam sheets, planted appropriate forest areas with innumerable handmade trees of flocked splayed wire, populated the villages with handmade blocks of scale buildings, and painted in the historical fields and field boundaries across the entire battle area. That is why I described Bruce as a crazy OCD mastermind. Yes, his scenery is a visually impressive piece of workmanship, but Bruce's real aim is to produce as accurately as possible a true representation of the battlefield as it existed at the time of the battle. I've played in four of his games (He is author of the rule sets "1856" and "1870") over the past fifteen years. IMO his properly scaled real world terrain makes a highly important contribution to the veracity of the simulation experience. I think it REALLY makes a difference, but precious few gamers are prepared to invest the huge amount of time and effort required. Strictly my opinion, of course. - – - Hi Wolfhag, Bruce has admitted that he also occasionally plays 6mm WW2 on his scenery layouts. B |
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