"Estonia dismantling WWII monuments" Topic

Estonian authorities have removed a Soviet-era tank from its pedestal in the eastern city of Narva, the most significant yet of an estimated 200 to 400 such monuments that the government has pledged to take down by the end of the year…

The Guardian: link

I can see why … in this case …

Russians needed the tank back. There is a "Special Operation" going on don'cha know…..

Dang there they go erasing history again…

Would they prefer a German tank? ;-)

Estonia et al were not liberated by the Red Army. They were reoccupied after the rape of 1940 of all three baltic states. It is a part of their history they have no wish to commemorate. It is not an erasure of history because they will never forget those dark years as victims and participants. I am sure a more fitting monument will be found.

dont forget a t-34 76 is worth big buck now.

Would they prefer a German tank? ;-)

Of course not!
They would prefer a German Panzerbataillon.
If we had one to spare.

Dang there they go erasing history again…

Did you read what RittervonBek posted ?

You are comparing Russia to the USA or CSA ? I'd think that is a bit of a stretch in this case, IMO. BTW, what they do in foreign countries does not always reflect what the US does or does not do.

I always had great sympathy for the Baltic Nations (including Finland) – talk about being between a rock and a hard place.

Dang there they go erasing history again…

Well, they can't erase ruzzia, can't they?
Even though they would probably love to.

It's a bit like the child who was abused by the neighbor and wants to get rid of his past.
The stains, the smell, the scars.
All those ugly little signs he left behind to remind it, he dominated it.

Especially when it has to deal with the past while watching what happens to another child from the neighborhood.

But why just yet and not earlier?
Because, we ignored their fears the neighbor would just come back to do it again and nobody would and could help them.

It is a part of their history they have no wish to commemorate.

What complicates the issue is that many ethnic Russians settled in the Baltic States. I think the article mentions that the location where the tank was is 80% Russians.

Perhaps the ethnic Russians should return to the Motherland. It seems she needs them.

Perhaps the ethnic Russians should return to the Motherland.

No, the plan is that wherever ethnic ruzzians settle in larger numbers, there will be a ruzzian zone of influence.
If necessary, this also works with Slavs in general or in great need even orthodox Christians.
In the long run, the motherland will take care of them.
Even if they don't want it.
But you can be sure that it will convince them, mother ruzzia is the only one that can protect them against the evil folks around them that are maltreating them, try to wipe their precious culture out and generally keep them from just taking what they want.

Regarding the tank at the monument, as mentioned in the article it will be moved into a military museum, where it will be hopefully displayed in a proper historical context. I am hoping that similarly many other monuments will find a fitting place in a museum collection somewhere.

As for the ethnic Russians in Estonia, keep in mind that the younger generation (up to 30 years old) of them has largely been born in independent Estonia, where their parents or grandparents moved during the Soviet era. And a lot of them have little love for the leadership of the "Motherland".

Well, they can't erase ruzzia, can't they?
Even though they would probably love to.

Yes I get that, but not to the "Woke" folk.

A friend of mine is married to a Ukrainian of Russian heritage. She can't see why everybody is so upset about Russia trying to save the poor Ukrainians from their fascist government.

"Did you read what RittervonBek posted ?"
Kind of hard to do that as it was posted after my post. I have now read it and fully agree with him.
"I can see why … in this case …"
In this case eh? Funny how that works.

I was in Narva about a year after the wall fell. Came across a huge pile of Lenin statues behind the Keep. The statues and every red star was removed immediately after they got the independence. No need to celebrate the achievements of the Soviet army

Kid to Dad.
"Tank! Wow! Why is it there?"

Same for statues. If 'gone', no "What happened?" Questions asked.

Kind of hard to do that as it was posted after my post.

I figured you would read it. Even after you posted. To carry on the interesting conversation, etc.

I have now read it and fully agree with him.
"I can see why … in this case …"
In this case eh? Funny how that works.

Yep, funny how that works … FWIW – Again I'm no apologists nor agree with either, the CSA nor the USSR in the past. Or with what the former USSR, now Russia is doing today. Funny how that works …

So, are you equating the taking down of Soviet statues in the Baltic states to taking down CSA, etc. statues in the USA ?

FYI just for the record, the CSA no longer exists. We all know this … I hope. The closest AFAIK is the small number of white supremacists, KKK, Neo-Nazis, etc. today are a vocal very misguide angry anachronistic, etc., lot. If they want to dress up, go to a Cosplay event.

No need to celebrate the achievements of the Soviet army

Bingo ! 👍👍

I am reminded of the joke pre-collapse of the Soviet Union about the Russian tourist and the Polish old lady in a public square in Warsaw dominated by a huge statue of Stalin.

The Russian tourist, admiring the statue, says to the Polish lady "You must be happy that Comrade Stalin liberated Warsaw"

The old Polish lady spits on the ground and says, "Yes, we must"

It always seems to me that the best solution, when a statue--or, I suppose, a tank--loses official political support, is to hand it over to some group which values it, for display on private land if they so desire. Sadly, this solution never seems to be used.

As it stands, eventually there will be no public artwork except abstracts--presumably with title plaques which can be changed out as necessary.

FWIW, the USA is not the Baltic States. And I can see why they want to get rid of any statue, etc. from the Russian occupation.

Now tearing down statues in the US I don't agree with. Move them if you must. To a museum type setting, etc. Place those historical markers next to them. With accurate[not biased] information about the person(s). The USA has to remember it's history … all of it. The good, the bad and the ugly.

Sadly, we see some historical sites today, e.g. Jefferson's home, Monticello has a very skewed woke CRT/1619 narrative. Jefferson is an afterthought where slavery is much of the tour.

Both Jefferson & slavery are very important topics in US history. If anything, they should be equal in the tour. But it is Jefferson's house and his legacy, etc., I'd think he'd be the "headliner". And the topic of slavery added to keep the history accurate, etc. But I'm not woke, etc. So some CRT types could say I am white supremacist(!?!?!?!). No … No I'm not, however I'm concerned with accurate history being taught, portrayed, etc.

It always seems to me that the best solution, when a statue--or, I suppose, a tank--loses official political support, is to hand it over to some group which values it, for display on private land if they so desire.

Back in the days when communist rule fell in Hungary, a lot of the now un-welcome statues around Budapest were gathered for display in a park, designed as an outdoor museum for people interested in seeing monuments of a by-gone era. Despite having visited Budapest many times, I never dropped by there, so cannot comment on how popular attraction it became. However, for anyone interested, there is a good summary of the statues shown on Wikipedia page:

link

I guess they don't want to erase their history either …

It is hardly easy for the central-Eastern European countries to forget their decades as satellites of the Soviet empire. Pretty much everybody over 40 years of age should have first hand memories of the era that came to end circa 1989, and the younger generation probably keeps on hearing about it often enough, be it at home or at school.

That said, a hundred years from now it may start to feel much more distant to the people present then.

Oh, I doubt that it will take that long.

I dont the Estonians are erasing their history, they are erasing the history of Russia in Estonia, a subtle but vital difference.

Here, an article that offers a little insight into Estonia, Russia and ruZZia.

What might be the average Russian's worldview? – On wartranslated.com

@ Robert P

Your idea for abstract statues with swappable plates resembles my own idea on this which was to have a statue of a generic man and woman in every town. The nameplate would change according to whomever the left was fetishising at the time: Palestinians, coal miners, Chairman Mao, and so on. If the cause du jour were transsexuals, you would put identical plaques on both statues.

It would save a lot of money on statues and would also save rioters a lot of effort. Instead of having to pull over whole statues, all they'd need to do is undo a couple of screws.

Digital billboards.
Holographic projection.
Rental, proportional presentation, what ever could be gerrymandered (Is that even a word?) and provides some lawyers and others a living.

they are erasing the history of Russia in Estonia, a subtle but vital difference.

Very true … but I'm sure their history books will talk about the Soviet occupation etc.

It seems some are alluding to the Russians occupying the Baltic states with the CSA and slavery in the USA. I don't think that is an acceptable "equation". As very bad, etc., as the Soviets in the Baltic States and the institution of slavery in the USA was. Sometimes once again some try to stretch a point of view to fit their narrative and agenda. Which generally is not accurate. As we see so often today. If you don't accept their narrative as fact, then you are a racist, a white supremacist, etc. Again their narrative does not fit the real situation & facts.

E.g. IIRC either or both CRT and/or 1619 Project states the US wanted to break away from the Crown to keep slavery. As the Crown had already outlawed slavery. At least officially, however, it was still occurring in some cases.

That is incorrect to believe that is why the US wanted to leave the control of the Crown. It is pretty clear why this occurred. But it had nothing to do with slavery, AFAIK. And it does not fit their far left, progressive, skewed, etc., narrative and agenda.

A War Memorial IS a War Memorial… WHATEVER context.
There may be a differencce with 'Heroic' memorials… but, I would still leave them alone.
As a UNITED KINGDON Brit… statues of Robert Bruce or Cromwell are ok by me. I don't want them taken down… even if I do not agree with their attitudes… and Cromwell OFFENDS me! lol!
Maybe a Tank might survive longer with preservaton… but I would replace with similar sculpture.
I DO know that many Estonians REALLY don't like Russia… and with good cause… I have a friend from there.Definitlely NOT pro Russian.. But, sure I've seen her sitting upon a 'Russian' tank memorial, in a pic! LOL!

A bit abstract… BUT, in UK… heads from 'decapitated' Roman statues sometimes found… but so are decapitated Skulls… in quantity.
People are people, and have Their Axes.

I heard an interesting idea.
We must ask from Ukrainians one burned and destroyed Russian Z tank as monument replacement.

The point about a Memorial is remember those who Died.
Whatever their side, cause or belief.
Just Dead. So… Think!

This is usual point for normal people.
For moscowites there are another "values" and they don't understand that point.

To take it to extremes, what if the Japanese asked to put a statue to the pilots who died at Pearl Harbor in downtown Honolulu? I imagine that is how the Estonians look at it. (now someone is going to show us a memorial to the Japanese on Oahu.)

That would be an amazing event if that happened in HI. But you forget …

We must ask from Ukrainians one burned and destroyed Russian Z tank as monument replacement.

I presume that they will have plenty of spare ones, though I am not sure I would want to have one of those around. Also, the connection to local events in Estonia would not really be that strong (or would somebody really associate it with the tens of thousands of Ukrainian refugees that the Estonians have kindly taken care of?).

Of course, if it were to be parked on a street oppposite the Russian embassy…

The previous tank also had no connection to local events. This was symbol of Russian aggression and conquer, so the burned one will work even better, as then our putinist Russians can actually commemorate the burned Russian aggressors in this tank and think about consequences of their aggression, or as they says – "liberation and denazification".

Nothing is changed from WWII, the same Russian horde do the same Russian things.

From Military.com :

link

Poland begins dismantling Soviet era monuments …

Some still may think the CSA was just like the USSR when it comes to taking down statues currently, etc. ?

My understanding that Balts drafted into the soviet military were treated very badly some killed because the Russians saw them as Germans, perhaps some of the balts here can confirm or correct this.

The Russian embassy is on Pikk park a tank opposite and nothing is getting past. Estonia has been removing statues for the last 30 years how fast and which ones depended on let's say ‘national pride'

So Belarus retaliated, demolished cemetery of Polish WWII (Anti-Soviet) war dead in their territory.

Aljazeera: link

That is just … Isn't that illegal ?