Editor in Chief Bill | 09 Aug 2022 7:28 a.m. PST |
…Like many units in the U.S. military, the 175th carries streamers, or commemorative military banners, atop its flag. They resemble long, colorful ribbons, each with lettering that names a campaign or battle in which the unit took part. People can see them on display in parades and color guard exercises. Seven of the unit's more than two dozen streamers have blue and gray stripes and bear the name of a Civil War battle or campaign in which its soldiers fought on the Southern side… Military: link |
35thOVI | 09 Aug 2022 7:36 a.m. PST |
This morning I am not in the mood for the Whiners. Let those few who "might" be offended, be offended. |
Legion 4 | 09 Aug 2022 7:37 a.m. PST |
Posted that here – TMP link … As I posted there : The "woke/CRT/1619" culling of our history continues … Now want to remove CSA Battle Streamers from unit flags. Erasing military history for some units that fought for the CSA. Again, likened to Orwell's "1984". You can't erase history because you don't like it or disagree with it. - |
ScottWashburn | 09 Aug 2022 7:44 a.m. PST |
Not honoring or commemorating something is not the same as erasing it. |
Choctaw | 09 Aug 2022 8:10 a.m. PST |
The woke movement really and truly makes me sick. We do not have a right not to be offended. Grow up, cupcakes. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 09 Aug 2022 8:18 a.m. PST |
Commemorating traitors is dumb. |
mjkerner | 09 Aug 2022 8:27 a.m. PST |
Well then, it sure is funny that Lincoln, Grant, and the GAF--just to name a few of the important ones--did, Bill. And people come along 150+ years later and are so, so utterly offended. 1984 for certain. |
35thOVI | 09 Aug 2022 8:38 a.m. PST |
@Bill as much as I revere my and our Colonial ancestors, they too were traitors. They were subjects of the crown and they took up arm's against their country. We can justify it however we want, but if they lost, how would they have been judged? I know others take another stand on their status as traitors, but I will stand by that belief. I would have fought on the colonial side as did my ancestors, so that would have made me a traitor too. This offense stuff is never going to stop unless we turn a deaf ear to the whiners and laugh in their face for the silliness of the whole thing. |
79thPA | 09 Aug 2022 8:39 a.m. PST |
It has nothing to do with erasing history. Can anyone name any other army in the world in which a unit has battle honors listed for mutiny or sedition? Of course not. The battle streamers memorializing their Confederate service should never have been issued in the first place. As an army veteran, I support their removal. |
Legion 4 | 09 Aug 2022 8:52 a.m. PST |
Commemorating traitors is dumb. As I said, it's our history. The good, the bad & the ugly of our past needs to be remembered. Choctaw, mjkerner, 35thOVI +1 As an army veteran, I support their removal. That may happen regardless … |
Lascaris | 09 Aug 2022 9:41 a.m. PST |
I guess if we're all in on honoring traitors we can petition congress to name the next aircraft carrier the USS Benedict Arnold or perhaps the USS Axis Sally… |
Dagwood | 09 Aug 2022 9:56 a.m. PST |
Not being American, I assume they were included as part of a reconciliation process when Southern units were re-incorporated into the US army. If they weren't worried about it then, why should we worry about it now ? |
35thOVI | 09 Aug 2022 10:00 a.m. PST |
@Dagwood, yes that is correct. |
robert piepenbrink | 09 Aug 2022 10:33 a.m. PST |
Lascaris, I know the distinction is lost on many of our ruling class, but deciding your ultimate loyalty is to a higher (or lower) level of government is not the same as selling out your country for money in the manner of the late General Arnold. The Tories were not traitors for choosing loyalty to the British Empire above loyal to to their colony, nor patriots for the reverse. And by the same token, men who chose loyalty to their state (Lee, or Jackson) were no more traitors than those who went to war with their state in service to their nation (Scott and Thomas.) I don't know why they worry so much about this in DC. I'm pretty sure every flag rank we have these days would make war on family and neighbors for an extra star and a book deal. |
SpuriousMilius | 09 Aug 2022 10:44 a.m. PST |
Just starting with the ECW, Cromwell & the Parliamentarians & many Scots were traitors; the colonists of the 13 original states of the union who weren't Tories were traitors as were the Texans & Californians who rebelled against Santa Anna. The French & Mexican revolutionaries & the Russians who deposed the Tsar were traitors. Perhaps being a successful traitor allows for commemoration, Bill. |
Tortorella | 09 Aug 2022 10:46 a.m. PST |
They gotta go. We are a melting pot, the army needs the best recruits from every race, creed. I will not speak for people of color serving under these streamers. But it's common sense. Never mind the flood of jargon from either side about woke. End the official status for Lost Cause style honors and get to work building the next army. Just display them in a museum and say what they are. The South does not support that cause any longer. Now we fight for everyone. |
Gear Pilot | 09 Aug 2022 11:05 a.m. PST |
How do I turn off the Ultra-Modern Board? |
Editor in Chief Bill | 09 Aug 2022 11:19 a.m. PST |
How do I turn off the Ultra-Modern Board? TMP link |
Editor in Chief Bill | 09 Aug 2022 11:23 a.m. PST |
Well then, it sure is funny that Lincoln… did, Bill. Lincoln was dead. A more accurate judge of how Northerners felt might be the fact that Lee Plantation was turned into Arlington Cemetery, so Robert E Lee would forever see the bodies of the fallen. |
arthur1815 | 09 Aug 2022 11:32 a.m. PST |
The Coldstream Guards in the UK is actually an example of a unit that was founded by traitors as it was raised by Colonel George Monck in 1650 as part of Cromwell's New Model Army. It was one of the units used by the Commonwealth to defeat a Scottish Royalist force at the Battle of Dunbar. In January 1660, Monck, now a general, marched his regiment from the village of Coldstream, just north of the Anglo-Scottish border, to London to help reinstate the Rump Parliament after its closure by elements of the army leadership. Monck then assisted in the This unit was formed as part of the New Model Army (NMA) by Colonel George Monck on 23 August 1650 in Scotland. Eleven days later, it was one of the units used by the Commonwealth to defeat a Scottish Royalist force at the Battle of Dunbar. In January 1660, Monck, now a general, marched his regiment from the village of Coldstream, just north of the Anglo-Scottish border, to London to help reinstate the Rump Parliament after its closure by elements of the army leadership. Monck then assisted in the Restoration of King Charles II. But a newly summoned parliament soon called for the disbandment of his old regiment, along with the rest of the NMA. The regiment's survival was secured in January 1661, when it was called upon by the parliament to put down an army mutiny. [from the National Army Museum website] No one in the UK seems to have ever been offended by this. And in WW2 two of our tanks – the Cromwell and the Covenanter – were named after people who had fought against King Charles I. There is also a statue of Cromwell outside the Houses of Parliament. So we have honoured some traitors! |
Dye4minis | 09 Aug 2022 11:34 a.m. PST |
I am an Air Force and Army (Civil Service ) Veteran and the way the US Military treats the memory of of their units is distressful. Example from firsthand experience: They retired the 17th Bomb Wing (Heavy). This unit's heritage went back to the Doolittle Raiders. As a young airman, I was entitled to wear the French Croix de Guerre as a unit award for their service to France in WWII. We were very proud of that. This "woke" faction infecting our military and society is just going to have to deal with history. It happened- get over it! You don't have to like the reasons for that history but you DO have to understand that it did happen. History cannot be changed even if one tries to "sugarcoat" it. If that makes you mad then good! Maybe you will use that knowledge and keep history from repeating itself? But to deny that good men died for their beliefs is akin to pissing on their graves and those who followed in their footsteps. Shame on those that do! Remember, you can always go and live in another country if it bugs you to that degree. Go wake someone else up and see how far you will get there! |
batesmotel34 | 09 Aug 2022 11:59 a.m. PST |
Commemorating unsuccessful traitors is dumb. Almost by definition, a traitor for the winning side is instead a patriot or hero or revolutionary but not a traitor. Choosing what unit designation, e.g. 17th Bomb Wing seems like a different type of administrative issue/decision rather than an exercise in woke-ness IMHO. Chris |
Lascaris | 09 Aug 2022 12:01 p.m. PST |
I'm not sure how "let's not honor traitors" somehow equates to let's forget history. I think there are other ways to study and understand history without putting those who fought against the country on a pedestal. |
Dye4minis | 09 Aug 2022 1:18 p.m. PST |
"Choosing what unit designation, e.g. 17th Bomb Wing seems like a different type of administrative issue/decision rather than an exercise in woke-ness IMHO." It was offered as an example where history was dustbined. That was in 1974, long before Woke came along. But today's dustbin is being filled with woke based motivation to ignore history. Just like the perceived belief that if they remove the statues, the result will be like it never happened! It happened and you (3rd party) cannot change that fact- try as you will. Like having an accident, no matter how bad you wish you could go back in time and do something different, you can't. You just have to find a way to live with it. Learn from it so it does not happen again. (But takes some effort on your (3rd Party) part….) |
HMS Exeter | 09 Aug 2022 1:22 p.m. PST |
Thanks for the tech guidance Bill. Silence is golden. |
Dye4minis | 09 Aug 2022 1:25 p.m. PST |
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rmaker | 09 Aug 2022 1:48 p.m. PST |
I'll believe the wokers are serious about past "treason" when they put Jane Fonda on trial. |
Stryderg | 09 Aug 2022 2:07 p.m. PST |
So, did the 175th not participate in those battles? |
Thresher01 | 09 Aug 2022 2:25 p.m. PST |
"Can anyone name any other army in the world in which a unit has battle honors listed for mutiny or sedition?". Our founding forefathers mutinied against the crown, and overthrew the rule of the King of England. I imagine the US Army has units that have battle honors linked to that "little dustup", but I'm no expert on US battle honors, so…….. This is just more woke silliness and doesn't change the facts or history, but IS certainly trying to whitewash it. Excellent point, rmaker. I look forward to her conviction and capital punishment, but they better hurry since she is ancient. |
mjkerner | 09 Aug 2022 2:37 p.m. PST |
"Lincoln was dead"….that's your counter, Bill?? You have no knowledge of his feelings about, and plans for, reconciliation?!? I can't believe that. I see I keyed GAF, instead of GAR. |
jdpintex | 09 Aug 2022 2:49 p.m. PST |
So take off all streamers from all regiments/units that fought in the ACW. That seems fair. |
Fitzovich | 09 Aug 2022 4:23 p.m. PST |
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Legion 4 | 09 Aug 2022 5:17 p.m. PST |
I assume they were included as part of a reconciliation process when Southern units were re-incorporated into the US army. If they weren't worried about it then, why should we worry about it now ? Logic & reason not emotion. 👍👍
This "woke" faction infecting our military and society is just going to have to deal with history. That is kind of the way I see it … study and understand history without putting those who fought against the country on a pedestal. I don't see historical accuracy as putting them on a pedestal ? Machinehead, if you support historical accuracy, it's racist ? So, did the 175th not participate in those battles? Yes, they did. IIRC, During the SAW, units from all over the country were involved. Or in WWI, the 42d Infantry Div also had units from all over the nation too. In both cases there were units and men from the South. As part of the US Forces. Throw in the rest of the wars after that too. Before the SJW, left leaning, etc., get their torches & pitchforks. I never have or do now support slavery in any way shape or form. Nor do I support the KKK, Neo-Nazis or White Supremacists, etc. I also did not support the over 500+ riots that burned, looted and destroyed millions of dollars of property and injured/killed so many during the Summer of 2020. Add the 6 Jan Riots too. They all were wrong … period. We have the right to peaceful protest and assembly. But those events were far from that. So take off all streamers from all regiments/units that fought in the ACW. That seems fair. Hyperbole, right ? |
Bunkermeister | 09 Aug 2022 5:25 p.m. PST |
After the Civil War the US Army and US Government welcomed Confederate soldiers into the US Army. They also named based after their generals. They were and are now all Americans and part of our common history. This is just more woke destruction of our culture and history as Americans. Mike Bunkermeister Creek |
Legion 4 | 09 Aug 2022 5:32 p.m. PST |
Yes, that is all true … As we know they are renaming many of those bases as well. |
35thOVI | 09 Aug 2022 6:05 p.m. PST |
Bunk and Legion. Because those who are so offended by those men today, are so much more intelligent, sensitive and so, so, so, much more enlightened than those who actually fought and died against them. Sad isn't. |
Thresher01 | 09 Aug 2022 6:26 p.m. PST |
Well said, Legion 4. Yes, part of the reconciliation with the South was recognizing certain individuals and units. Alas, the new ultra-PC jihadist, woke mob can't accept or permit that. To be completely accurate, there were apparently 574 riots in 2020, prior to the election, which caused more than $2 USD BILLION dollars in damage, injured more than 2,000 law enforcement officers (some were even killed, along with other innocent civilian deaths too), by molotov throwing radicals attacking them, courthouses, police departments, and many businesses. Whole areas of some cities were destroyed by the arsonists, and many more businesses torched and were looted, not to mention all of the vehicles damaged and destroyed by the radicals. There's been NO investigation of them, or their crimes, and our top "leaders" have advocated for, and even helped fund "no bail" and early release of anyone arrested for these crimes, of which there are far too few. |
Dave Woodchuck | 09 Aug 2022 6:36 p.m. PST |
I really enjoy these threads where the theme is "things have been a bit too civil on the boards recently, let's roll a grenade in the room." My statement is this: the streamers are just flashy, no big deal. The unit history is still the unit history. Also, Ft Bragg should keep its name for his very material incompetence aiding the Union victory. |
LostPict | 09 Aug 2022 6:56 p.m. PST |
Turns out US navy flags use the same set of 36 battle streamers for all US Navy ceremonial flags. As such all Naval units share the same honors on their flags. Maybe the Army should consider the same approach. |
McKinstry | 09 Aug 2022 6:58 p.m. PST |
I served at SAC headquarters in Omaha, HQAF at Andrews and with 56th SOW, all as an SP and darned if I can remember what if any streamers were on any flags. My oldest is out now but he did his Afghan tour with 4th CAB, 4ID and later at the 101st and I'm pretty sure he'd laugh at me if I asked about battle streamers as would his best friend who is still a DAP pilot with the 160th. My youngest and his wife are with 18th Corps at Bragg and would equally not give a rats backside as to what streamer was on a flag. Such things are ephemeral and if history is dependent on a flag streamer for permanence, it probably isn't all that important. |
Heedless Horseman | 09 Aug 2022 7:37 p.m. PST |
USA is not my country… so my opinion worthless. But, I FEEL that current attitudes are Disrespectful to the Fallen and , to ME, rather disgusting. We ALL have 'skeletons'… let them lie In Peace. I am a Brit, but can still 'Honour' Scots Jacobites, US 'Patriots'…Nazis… even some IRA… or Modern Russians…. for THEIR commitment in their beliefs. They Died for them. 'Removing' Their commitment to their cause… whether 'right' or 'not'… says a lot about 'Modern Society' and Its 'values'. |
Gray Bear | 09 Aug 2022 8:31 p.m. PST |
"With malice toward none with charity for all with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right let us strive on to finish the work we are in to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan ~ to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations." Lincoln would have been ok with the battle honors. |
Prince Alberts Revenge | 09 Aug 2022 8:37 p.m. PST |
Next few USN ships should be named after Aaron Burr, Aldrich Ames, Benedict Arnold and Robert Hansen just to show that woke crowd what's what. |
Heedless Horseman | 09 Aug 2022 9:11 p.m. PST |
Good Words, Gray Bear. But now, Ignored… by so many.WHY reopen oOd Woulnds? |
Editor in Chief Bill | 09 Aug 2022 9:28 p.m. PST |
Lincoln would have been ok with the battle honors. I really doubt it. They didn't fight for the Union in those battles, so they shouldn't get recognition for them. Soldiers who serve today do not want to be reminded that those soldiers fought for the Confederacy. |
Heedless Horseman | 09 Aug 2022 9:59 p.m. PST |
You have to be Kidding! A Soldier Fights for 'The Flag' … whatever the Flag. If not.. then 'polletics'. If soldiers, today, do not Want to Remember Those Who Fell… for whatever cause… then They ain't Troops. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 09 Aug 2022 10:39 p.m. PST |
If soldiers, today, do not Want to Remember Those Who Fell… for whatever cause… then They ain't Troops. For slavery? What a cause. Sure to inspire the new generation of soldiers. |
Dn Jackson | 10 Aug 2022 2:03 a.m. PST |
"It has nothing to do with erasing history. Can anyone name any other army in the world in which a unit has battle honors listed for mutiny or sedition?" Well, someone already addressed this above. However, I believe I'll address this statement in regards to the Confederate army. Confederate units did not mutiny, nor did they commit sedition. In 19th Century America one's country was not These United States. It was the Commonwealth of Virginia or the State of New York. The men who fought for the south were not mutineers, they were not traitors, they were not seditious. They were loyal to their country. There was a reason there were no trials for sedition or treason, the Federal government knew they would lose such trials. You can argue that they fought for slavery, but given a fair hearing, you might very well lose that argument as well. History, real history, is complex and those who lived 150 years ago can not be divided into cartoon 'good guys' and 'bad guys'. Anyone who actually studies history can point this truth out in many different ways. |
35thOVI | 10 Aug 2022 3:57 a.m. PST |
@Bill if the soldiers of today are like the average person on the street, then they would probably not be able to tell you who fought who in the Civil War, who we fought in WW1, the reasons the Civil War was fought or what the Cold War was. Go out and ask 100 random people on the street those questions. Ask them who Bragg, Hill, Benning or Hood were. They won't know, nor care. They can tell you what a Kardashian is doing though. It is only a very small minority that have any idea about these things and a smaller minority that find themselves "offended". |
Murvihill | 10 Aug 2022 5:02 a.m. PST |
Those streamers were added to the units to benefit the soldiers in them (morale and unit pride). Who is benefitting with their removal? |