"Austrian (Hungarian actually) Standards. Is this a thing?" Topic

I've never read Philip Haythornthwaite's Osprey on the Austrian infantry cover to cover so I'd never noticed this comment before:

"Both sides of the Ordinärfahne were similar (although the reverse of Hungarian flags may have borne the arms of Hungary on the eagle after 1806".

Is there much basis for this claim? I've never seen it made anywhere else. In fact David Hollins says Hungarian regiments tended to retain the 1798 pattern, although it's possible of course that the flags may have had the Hungarian arms painted on later.

Curiously,
John

Rawkins starts out with this: "Three basic pattern of flag were issued to the regular
infantry during the Napoleonic period, the 1792 model; 1804 model and the 1806
model. All were of very similar design, however, the authorisation of a new pattern of
flag or standard did not always mean that older patterns were withdrawn and therefore
regiments could often have two or more designs of flag in service at any one time.
The subject of which type of flag was carried by which regiment at a particular point
of time is one that has vexed researchers for many years; unfortunately as in many
Austrian historical records there is a difference between a new flag being ‘authorised',
presented to the regiment and actually being carried by a field battalion in battle. In
1792 one of the first military orders issued by the new Kaiser Franz II was that new
flags bearing his FII cipher should be produced and distributed to the infantry
regiments." He goes into greater detail but I think this might answer your question.

More from Rawkins but this time Cav standards:In 1788, with the outbreak of the Austro-Turkish War, all cavalry regiments were
prohibited from carrying standards in the field or even on campaign and they were to
be stood up at the depot or regimental chapel. The ruling remained effective into the
start of the next decade and although Franz II authorised new standards for the cavalry
they were not permitted to carry them into combat again until 1794.
The 1792 pattern cavalry standards were almost identical to those of the infantry
but the Ordinärstandarten measured only 80cm x 80 cm and the Leibstandarte 80cm
x 60 cm. One Leibstandarte was issued to the first squadron of each regiment and one
Ordinärstandarten to each of the other squadrons.
The 1792 and 1804 patterns of standard followed the same designs as those for the
infantry flags of that year with the Leibstandarte being white with the Madonna motif
on the obverse and the doppeladler on the reverse as for the infantry. The
Ordinärstandarten were yellow with the doppeladler on both obverse and reverse. The
1806 pattern standard was smaller for all regiments measuring only 65cm x 65 cm
and was of similar design to the infantry pattern flag but without the garland of arms.
There is no evidence that regimental identification patches were ordered for any
cavalry standards.
During the campaign in Italy of 1792-1800 at least some of the hussar regiments
appear to have carried older pattern Leibstandarten dating from the mid-18th century
of a swallowed tailed design with a heavy gold bullion fringe edging. The field was
white and carried the Madonna and sunburst design on both the obverse and reverse.
There is no official record for these flags which appear to have been of the 1769 pattern
prescribed for the hussars.A unique standard was awarded to the Huszaren-Regiment Nr.4 ‘Hesse-Homburg'
in 1814 by Pope Pius VII. The regiment had provided a squadron as personal body
guard and escort to the Pope after his release from captivity by Bonaparte at Savona.

The standard was made of silvered silk with a heavy gold bullion fringe edging and a
gold scroll and floral border. The motif was a silver stylized doppeladler charged with
the Austrian arms. The stave was painted buff with gilt line work and a gilt sunburst
finial. It is unlikely that the standard was ever carried on active service.

It doesn't say they did or didn't have Hungarian arms on the flag but it does say we don't know much. So that may be the best answer I'll get :^)

John

The Wikipedia entry for Austrian Napoleonic Flags has the following note:
"It has been claimed that Austrian flags from after 1806 and later into the Napoleonic period had identifiers in the top corners and some displayed Hungarian arms on the reverse. These claims seem to come from: Wise, T.: Flags of the Napoleonic Wars (Osprey MAA 78) 1978, which illustrates an 1806 pattern Ordinarfahne attributed to IR12 with upper corner identifier, but no source is provided. There is no regulation prior to the earliest known regular flag with identifiers, an 1816 pattern, held in the Museum of Military History, Vienna and there are no flags with Hungarian arms aside from the Insurrection patterns. However, aside from the 1809 VUMB Landwehr flag, the 1792-pattern Leibfahne of IR16 Lusignan displays L. I. R. 16 in the top corner by the pole. The lettering is under the Doppeladler, but this may be something left by those making the flag."

Not sure that throws anymore light on the issue. I use GMB Flags and they do have Hungarian arms for 1806 model so I tend to go with that.

Cheers

Jim

That's really interesting Jim. I don't have that flag Osprey.

IR 16 Lusignan must have been right little rebels then; not only did they use an unorthodox pattern for the flame border, they also got to write on their standard :^)

Cheers,
John