"In the Pursuit of Accuracy" Topic

I do not expect any answers here but I wonder if this rings a bell with anyone else?

I am building some WW2 forces for the Normandy campaign. Though the actual wargame units will be generic, I like to base them on something historical that looks the part. Firstly came the Allies. They were quite straight forward with units based upon the UK's 7th Armd Div and the US 1st Inf Div.

Then I moved onto the Germans. The infantry, whether ordinary Heer or Fallschirmjager also seemed quite easy but then came the armour. Who to represent?

Having decided on 7th Armd for the British, 21st Panzer seemed obvious and there was lots of information. But wait. 21st Panzer had all those strange vehicles including French half-tracks for the Panzergrenadiers and I really wanted to model the classic SdKfz 251. What about Panzer Lehr? Lots of classic vehicles but the soldiers are in those weird short-jacketed SP uniforms and they are hard to find of quality in 20mm. (My preference is AB figures.) 2nd Panzer? They have a distinct style of numbering on their Panzer turrets which I cannot find decals of. So now I am looking at 116th Panzer but there is not so much info on them.

So unique uniforms or vehicles limit the use in other places and lack of other details is just personally annoying. In the end it might actually be better to use something with fewer details so I can use my imagination. But I so wanted to build 21st Panzer units.

My wife just laughs. Any sympathy out there or am I too much the historian and not enough the gamer? Or even too much the button counter?

I laugh too. But in sympathy.
I hope you have the correct soft hat for each British armoured unit.

Go for a mixed Heer unit – PZIVs, Panthers (I only own 1), a Tiger I maybe. A panzer grenadier company in halftracks – very mixed uniforms (smock, zeltbahn, M43 uniform). Armoured recce – armoured cars, 250 halftracks. Some artillery, AT and AA assets and your golden, no-one will ever care :)

What about 2nd SS or 12th SS?

Some calm advice.

I was considering 12 SS as a seperate unit but I suppose I could go straight to them for my armour. It might just work.

By the time of the Falaise Gap debacle the German forces were thoroughly mixed-up and ad hoc Kampfgruppen would comprise all manner of troops and equipment. June 6th would see Orders of Battle adhered to; a couple of months later and anything goes!

My Normandy panzer types started life as 12th SS as they fought pretty much everyone from day one, but I did them fairly generic so they get used for anything, even 21st Panzer:)

A lot of them wore Italian pattern camo, so do for Heer panzergenadiers too. I have a few units in pea dot. I'm really unconvinced about how prevalent the wierd Panzer Lehr uniforms were, despite Battlefront highlighting them to sell more figures. My PL guys wear the same uniforms as everyone else.

If you are desperate to do 21st Panzer, just get a few of the SP guns and don't worry about the French halftracks. Don't forget some Porsche turreted Tiger IIs for Operation Goodwood!

In the end I have enough stuff for a battalion of Pz IVs, a battalion of Panthers, a Stug battalion, a company each of Tiger 1 and Tiger II plus various other SP guns, a bunch of halftracks and recce vehicles and some captured French tanks which has been plenty to do a vast range of Normandy and other Northwest European battles.

Hilariously the vehicle which has seen most action of all is a lowly SP 20mm Flak gun which apparently turns up all over the place.

Buy everything, 1-1, over time. That's what I do.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

12th SS will work, as does the 9th and 10th SS too, and their orgs and tanks/equipment were similar. Some had attached Tigers and/or Jagdpanzer IVs.

Halftracks as well.

Of course with the 12th SS, the Canadians are a must, and then of course you've got their different helmets and uniform colors, so the issue cuts on both sides of the conflict for the purist.

Now that is an impressive collection Bunkermeister!

I have fairly generic units for Normandy – my Canadians are not too green that they couldn't pass as Brits (at least at 20mm) and my Germans are a mixed lot, although I just admit I don't have any French re-purposed vehicles; as noted by Typhoon 2, as you get further into the campaign the German forces become very mixed

I sympathize, Artilleryman, but it's a problem almost inherently without a solution. The more information we have, the more unique things turn up and the more limited the commercial options are. As I see it you really have three choices:
1) Generic 1944 Panzer Division--as close to "by the book" as you can get for German forces that year, and never mind that all the real-life specimens varied in some measure from the official standard. Think of it as the "Deutsches Normal Panzer Division."
2) The target of opportunity--whatever real-life division is most convenient, however you define convenient. Cost of purchase and ease of painting usually head the list.
3) "These are MY people!" Pick the unit to which you have the strongest emotional attachment, and build that division. Put up with odd vehicles, castings you wouldn't otherwise accept or having to pay for custom decals if necessary, so that afterward you can bore friends and enemies alike with the uniqueness of your miniature creation.

But until you decide what your priority is--adherence to standard, ease of purchase or accuracy--none of the rest of us can help. That call is yours.

You can't go too far wrong with Panthers and PzIVHs for Normandy, as well as with a few Tiger Is.

SdKfz 251D and trucks for the PanzerGrenadiers, and perhaps some 250s for the recon unit.

Wehrmacht troops in grey uniforms, or others in camo smocks and zeltbahns as you like/need/desire for the troops.

That should work for about 90% of the units in the region.

When I started painting WWII planes, my paint collection literally overflowed with blues, greens, grays, and browns. Indexing the colors available to a model of plane by theater, year, and unit is insanely complicated.

@ Bunkermeister

I've seen demo games of FoW that looked exactly like your collection.

In Horse & Musket we have an expression "Playing the role of the 33rd regiment today will be …."

If you want to do the 21st Panzer but prefer to model the classic SdKfz 251, then do the 21st Panzer as if it was equipped with Sdkfz 251s. When you play them as the 21st just announce that the Sdkfz 251s are standing in for the correct equipment. At some point your 21st will probably be standing in for another unit which was equipped with Sdkfz 251s, and your equipment will be correct. If you find over time that having the wrong equipment bothers you, you can always to the correct equipment later.

That's an interesting take Bill. I also do Horse and Musket (I know madness awaits those who multi-period) and the 'Playing the role…' idea is used all the time. Of course the 33rd Regt will be painted up as accurately as possible, just their stats will vary for the role they are playing. Putting the 251s in for the 21st in Normandy would be a bit like having one of the 33rd's companies painted as riflemen and saying 'they are standing in'. However the principle is sound and when I reflect, with 2nd Panzer I am stymying myself because the turret numbers may be slightly wrong. (I hear my wife laughing again.)

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I have really enjoyed the discussion.

The more you know the harder it is.

My personal approach is to have generic German infantry in field grey, which can be used for an infantry division [with Marders] or panzer grenadiers for the 21st Panzer , for which I have some armour including the French conversions. I duck the half track issue by not having any!
Alongside them I have SS infantry, with a selection of armour, mostly based on 12th SS.
I like to have specific divisions in mind [because I like adding the decals] but they can easily stand in for other similar units.
My Normandy Germans can also provide a pool from which to draw Market Garden forces.

No reason why you can't have ageneric core of infantry but build optional armour around them if you want a change of identity.

The 'those weird short-jacketed SP uniforms' are standard issue for all motorised troops including the Pz Grenadiers in half tracks not just for Panzer Lehr.
L

Leon, that is interesting. I know that the uniform was authorised for the specialist vehicles in a Panzergrenadier unit such as SP anti-tank and infantry guns and that it was a popular unofficial acquisition by the infantry. Panzer Lehr issued them widely but was it the official issue for the Panzergrenadiers elsewhere? I have had a look at all my 'sources' (books and photos) and the vast majority even up to 1945 show the four pocket jacket. Yes, here and there an individual has the special uniform but was it the official issue for the grenadiers? Were Panzer Lehr 'showing the way ahead' but no one really caught up? I would be interested to know.

I have played games against people who had Guard lancers, Guard chasseurs etc because the uniforms were so cool, but which for gameplay purposes were treated as line so as not to unbalance the game.

I would be inclined to do similar with NWE Germans.

It was authorised for trrops in half tracks from late 42 onwards, pictures can be tricky, depends on what units get photographed.
The motorised/PzGren units were always a very small proportion of the German army.
For the mid period a lot of pics are of Waffen SS units ( they had a well organised publicity outfit) or standard Heer infantry ( often wearing the summer uniform in pics from Italy/Russia) so of course there your getting the standard uniform or smocks and 43 Pea dot HBT. By the time you get to autumn 44 the pics are showing the various winter jacket types.
The reason the 'Panzer jacke' is associated with the Lehr is simply because they had a film unit atatched in Normandy hence they are the one of the only pictorial reference for the period.
For easily available sources have a look at the Osprey German Army books and the Motorised & Panzer Grenadier books.
L

I played a game once, the GM put a jagpanther on the board. After someone started shooting at it it brewed right up "Misidentified Marder" was his claim.