"Gettysburg - alternative battle sites" Topic

Once I get a set of rules and counters, sooner or later, I start wondering if the battle was fought in a different place, how might it play out. So, on the anniversary of the battle at Gettysburg, a few questions:

1. Assuming that Ewell captured Harrisburg, and Lee decided to move his army there, where would the battle be fought? Lee might have a hard time concentrating his army before the AOP started to arrive, so it's not a given that he holds up on the town side of the Susquehanna.

2. If the AOP fell back to the Pipe Creek line, would Lee have tried to attack one or both flanks?

From a gaming point of view, I have always wanted Lee to get between Meade and Washington, the ultimate nightmare for the Federals. I am not sure that Lee would have attacked Meade at Pipe Creek. He and Longstreet would have preferred their own ground.

But I am not sure Lee was well during this campaign, I feel like his aggressive tendencies got the better of him and Longstreet had a better idea of the strategic goals. This was their last chance.

I think if you find a good period map and look at the roads, it might suggest other places that the armies might run into each other.

Would it in fact have been a "Federal nightmare" for Lee to be between Meade and Washington? I know Longstreet thought so at the time and in his postwar writings, but I'm not convinced. Lee could not support himself there, whereas Meade could draw supplies from west, north, or east. Washington in mid-1863 was sufficiently well fortified all round that I doubt it could be taken by direct assault, and the ANV had neither the numbers nor the secure supply line to conduct a siege.

I think the first of Father-of-Cats' scenarios is more likely – Lee encamped in central Pennsylvania living off the fat of the land (giving Northern Virginia a break for the first time since 1861), and Meade being pushed to attack him.

What if Lee had begun to concentrate the ANV earlier. So on 30 June, III was around the Lutheran Seminary when Buford arrived. I and II Corps were maybe a day's march closer to G'Burg. Meade would have had to attack, aklthough, Lee might have attacked first.

Some idle thoughts.

1. There was nothing magical about the terrain around Gettysburg. There were plenty of equally good positions that Meade could have occupied. Choosing to continue the fight at Gettysburg after July 1 meant the 1st and 11th Corps did not have to conduct a contested withdrawal after being beat up on July 1, and also avoided admitting defeat on Pennsylvania soil.

2. I doubt Lee seriously contemplated putting his army east of the Susquehanna without first defeating the Army of the Potomac. Doing so with an undefeated Army of the Potomac in the field would have risked being cut off from Virginia. The more likely goal was to sever rail and canal lines of communication running north, south and west from Harrisburg.

3. Having the opportunity to fight the Army of the Potomac in detail was probably Lee's dream. By advancing to support Buford, Reynolds gave Lee that opportunity. The problem was that Lee's army was not concentrated to take advantage of that opportunity, so Lee was only able to employ 4 of his 9 infantry divisions.

4. Longstreet's plan for the ANV to take up a defensive position between Meade and Washington would have been a nightmare scenario for Meade, provided the position Lee took up also gave him unthreatened access to Virginia. Politically if Lee pulled it off, Meade would have to fight an offensive battle. Given the relative positions of the various U.S. and Confederate commands on the evening of July 1 though, I am not sure that plan was realistic.

Two things to remember.
1) If Lee put himself between Meade and Washington, then Meade would be sitting on his supply lines.

2) The 'plan' Lee and Longstreet had to find defensible terrain and make Meade attack them, was only mentioned by Longstreet after Lee's death. If you fight a defense battle, then the enemy has the initiative and decides when and where the battle will be fought. Unless you're fighting a total incompetent like Burnside, it's probably not going to happen the way you want it to. Just look at the March to the Sea between Johnston and Sherman. Johnston kept taking up great defensive positions, and Sherman just went around them. I have serious doubts Lee and Longstreet ever had such a plan.

The political ramifications of threatening Washington was what I was thinking of. Was this not a primary consideration of movement for Union armies in the East up to this time? The AOP would have been forced to attack, Lee could perhaps pick the ground.

As for supplies, I think Lee was often short and he was glad to be in a region of such bounty. Getting back to VA was vital, but Lee was very confident about beating Hooker, I imagine.

None of this was very practical for Lee to pull off, but it makes for some gaming alternatives.

Washington in mid-1863 was sufficiently well fortified all round that I doubt it could be taken by direct assault,

Fortifications without troops are just a bluff. Washington had been stripped of most of its movable troops to reinforce the AotP. So had Baltimore. However, would Lee have known that? Looking at prepared defenses from the outside, it's not always possible to tell whether they are manned or not -- as Baldy Smith discovered the following year at Petersburg.

If the AOP fell back to the Pipe Creek line, would Lee have tried to attack one or both flanks?

I don't think Lee would have been compelled to attack that line, unless his aggressive spirit got the best of him, as it did at Gettysburg. As long as the AotP stayed east of the mountains, Lee's connection with VA was not threatened, and he could continue to live off the fat of the land out of Meade's reach.

Assuming that Ewell captured Harrisburg, and Lee decided to move his army there,

If Ewell's corps captured Harrisburg, there would be no need to move the rest of the ANV there.

If Lee put himself between Meade and Washington, then Meade would be sitting on his supply lines.

And vice versa; he would be on Meade's supply line. And Lee had been gathering and stockpiling supplies ever since his army crossed the Potomac.

The 'plan' Lee and Longstreet had to find defensible terrain and make Meade attack them, was only mentioned by Longstreet after Lee's death. … I have serious doubts Lee and Longstreet ever had such a plan.

Agreed. Lee told Trimble that he hoped to pick off the AotP piecemeal as it came hurrying after him.

There are two discussions here: what was historically likely/possible; and what makes an interesting wargames scenario (think Operation Sealion).
Lee might not have known that Washington was vulnerable, but Meade knew it; so it's not impossible that if Lee puts himself between the Union army and Washington, then Meade has to attack. Perhaps Lee heard from a Confederate spay in Washington…

Yes advocate, that's what I was talking about. I think Washington got pretty nervous in 64 when Early threatened. Lincoln might have to order Meade to get after Lee pronto, and Longstreet and Lee pick some ground they like. It's do or die for both sides, the result could end the war.

IIRC, did not General Meade at one point consider establishment of a defense line south of Gettysburg making use of the stream of Mill Run?

B

Are you thinking of Pipe Creek?

Thank you, donlowry. That is what I was thinking of. Was on the road and got it wrong responding "off the cuff".

B