"What Price for High Quality Paint Jobs?" Topic

I'm wondering what the prevailing rate is for 28mm painted miniatures done to a high standard? Or to put it another way, how much would you be willing to pay someone to paint your figures if you wanted something that was above average. To put it in context, I noticed that a certain distributor, who also happens to do commissions, is charging $9-10 per figure (which includes the figure, which I estimate to cost about $2 USD per copy). The figures are very well done indeed. So deducting the cost of the lead, would you say that $8 USD per figure is the prevailing rate for above average painting? I have no opinion as to whether this is too high, too low or just right. Some well known painters in the UK are charging GBP10.00, which would be $18 USD to $20 USD USD. Yikes! I am curious and wonder what others think.

I know a very good painter who charges £15.00 GBP per figure and for his work thats a reasonable rate BUT I would only want my main characters at this level. Then we have a guy who charges £1.50 GBP and these are to a good wargames standard both game at my local club.

A figure is only worth what you want to pay for it.

Jules

$9-10 per figure for average wargames standard is pretty normal for commissions in USA and UK. This includes figure, basing, flags, and postage. For above average painting style, the sky is the limit!

I think that the consensus on most threads like this is about $5 USD for foot and $8 USD per mounted fig for a Grade 7+/8 effort. Of course, the market dictates the price, so some gamers are willing to pay a lot more if it's something they desperately need or have the money for.

I disagree that $5 USD is average for a 7-8 effort. I am normally less than the norm and I would start at $10 USD per figure and twice that for mounted. on average a 7=8 figure would be quite detailed and take 2-3 hours to do, making execptions for period and dress. An armored knight will not take very long, but an Old guard will be quite involved.

What is confusing to many is that there are soo many new painters in the market that start off very cheap to get going, and then raise their prices over time. I don't begrudge them entering the market, but it makes it so difficult for an established painter to make any kind of decent income from it. This is precisely why I stopped doing commissions and now do it for fun and friends.

For a high standard I would expect to pay upwards of $20 USD per figure at the very least. I alos firmly believe that you get what you pay for.

I charge $40.00 USD minimum for a foot model. So, the scales vary greatly. I could make more at McDonalds at the price some people want to pay for minis.

I tried selling some very nicely painted Old Glory 25mm Brit Indian Mutiny figures at Historicon a few years back.Based and flocked.And all I was asking was $5.00 USD per.All I got were compliments,but no buyers!
I still have the figures.
And they are some of my better painted figures.About an 8-9 standard.

Sgt. Bob

'A figure is only worth what you want to pay for it.

Jules'

Moat definitely!

Moat definitely!

Of course that should read most definitely!

Historical gamers are notorious tight-wads, so of course they don't want to actually pay what a paint job is worth. On the other hand, it wouuld be good for the country to have a wargamer authorizing purchases; "No, I don't think that nuclear attack submarine is worth a billion dollars. I remember the day when you could get a sub for $3 USD million!"

Then again, having access to the nation's treasury might be bad if he hits a minis convention! Good for the dealers though!;-)

And I even lowered my price to $4.00.

Nothing.Yet I saw some of these people buying other stuff,that looked like it was painted by a chimp!

I don't get it.

I have to agree with Eric, more often than not it is not worth the time or effort for what many want to pay. And that is fine, I just don't paint anymore for the public at large. I have one or two guys I know personally and they are buds so I do a figure or two for them every now and again and it is all cool.

Painting for commission or even some companies is simply, in my opinion, not worth the effort.

The last straw for me was I did some very nice figures for company X and was never paid. That is all I will say on the matter as airing it in a public forum like this is bad manners. I still have some of their figures and they have my painted ones, I guess it is a wash in the end.

Reading this one I wonder how many different ideas of "high standard" exists and how long it takes to paint such a model.

I agree to the what you pay is what you get statement. From my experience most people painting in the high standard field that can still be used for gaming (not the single figures display stuff) are all fully booked and very hard to get hold of.
Talking of stuff that goes for about 20-40 USD here on average. 10 USD is solid wargames standard that should be above average gaming store standard.

I second twfigurines…

Me I charge $2.75 USD USD for most infantry (some may hit 3.00 some even less than 2.75) and $3.50 USD per horse. I got plenty of work from repeat customers.

I third TWF

peter
peter@dutchpond.com

Perhaps folk should start to check out these various companies operating out of Sri-Lanka and Bangladesh- they will eventually (probably sooner rather than later) pull the rug from under western painters- these guys do a VERY good job for around £1.50 GBP to £2.00- probably equivalent to what you would pay £5.00 GBP to £10.00+ from a painter in the Uk.-even wargamers are not unaffected by globalisation.
cheers chris

I've seen some of those Sri-Lanka paintjobs at Salute and whilst I agree they are good value for money I doubt they qualify as high standard.

TWF is quite right on the quality. Heck my quality is not the greatest but darn better than some starving arties or 10 year old painting for pennies. Also does anyone ever figure in the postage to and from a place like that?

P

From I can gather with the Eastern paint outfits- they will replicate exactly what you send them- send them high quality to copy and they will copy it- but, they are copyists- they have a very limited idea what it is they are actually doing in terms of knowledge of their subject- so you have to detail exactly what you want them to do with each type of figure. I've seen some of their work based on originals from a top UK painter ( a £10.00 GBP to £15.00 GBP a figure merchant) and the figures are indistinguishable from the original. The unit price was £1.50! though this was for an order of some 1,000 plus figs, with the promise of more to come if satisfactory.Turn around on 1,000 French infantry was about 6 weeks. If they can sustain that I can't see how the majority of painters in the UK and US can possibly compete- postage on a large order like that is insignificant compared to what you would have to pay in the west for the figures anyway-

cheers chris

Hi all,

Well i'm based in u.k.

My prices for mainly Xyston 15mm very well painted is £2.50 GBP per inf and £4.00 GBP per cav(for this you get the figure deflashed,the seperate shield deflashed,hand/hands drilled out,stell weapons,painting,varnishing and basing),this might sound a bit expensive…but my order book is overflowing and have got lots of repeat customers.

Saying this i have always supplied the figures in a reasonable time and if there are any problems then i always contact the customer asap…people come to me because they know that they will always get a first class job which has been well researched.

And because i put alot of effort and time into making them look real good the hourly rate is still low..DOH!

So i guess you could say you get what you pay for????

Have a look in the "fanaticus" galleries for samples and keep your eyes on the Xyston website…Macedonians that i've just painted for them will be on there soon…

Cheers all…..Andy Bryant

Lets face it if we were only motivated by money none of us would be doing this.

It is because we love painting wargames figures.

The fact that there are some more wealthy people out there that can't paint as well or do not have the time and want to game faster isnt a bad thing for our hobby. It allows us to keep some money moving around within the hobby. The more the merrier I say.

It is my experience that some peoples opinions about there painting levels is just plain nuts. Beauty is after all in the eye of the beholder.

I am just waiting till some clever git sets up in China then I think Sri Lanka and all of us will really have a fight on our hands.

Cheers

Cole

"I am just waiting till some clever git sets up in China then I think Sri Lanka and all of us will really have a fight on our hands."

I think that this has already happened. Figure manufacturers already get offers from China to supply painted figures – but cast in China too. Many of those painted collectible 54mm figures and tanks already come from China and cost the importer between 5% and 10% of the retail price.

The clever gits are cleverer than you think – rather than dropping the price, they just make larger profits.

On another tack, when I used to paint a lot of figures, I could do up to 20 ECW 25mm an hour. The trick was to use Pelikan Plaka fast drying water colour paints and paint a whole figure in one go. Then let the figures dry for a day or two and fix any goofs.

I think Git is a bad word like Mook! I think that is a slur against those of us with Scottish ancestery as Mooks are to Arabs. HUMMMMMM!!!!!

No offense meant a git is a clever industrious chap as we all know the Scots are…..

Maybe entrepreneurial asians ……..

Ciao

Cole

I paint 15mm AB figures and charge around £7.50 GBP for foot and £8.50 GBP for horse, tartan, lances and flags/standards are extra. I paint in oils and once upon a time, painted the display figures for both Battle Honours and then Wargames South. So, I like to think I am of a reasonable standard. coldn't do it full time though.

One thing that I have found that has boosted my business is the research end. A for instance is that I just finished up a pack of marines for a fellow. In stead of just going to the old Ospray series I went to some private collections and museums (backrooms) to look over orginial uniforms and even color footage of some battles. Now that may seem a little overboard but these marines look the part. From new to faded uniforms to mix and match colors. I do the same with civil war since that is my specialty. I think research on the artist end is more important than just throwing paint on a figure.

My prices still hold at $2.75 USD to $3.50 USD (new price increase) per figure depending on what it is. (25mm) I also still only take on two customers at a time and offer that if I dont finish on time your paint job is free. This being based on a four day work week. Tuesday to Friday. Also keeping your customer up to date on what is gong on is as important also.

Peter
peter@dutchpond.com

I find this as a extremely intrusting subject, I've always liked my leaders painted by somebody else! Since the internet came along, i will look on Ebay and or a pro painting service. Example right now Ebay has a Perry norman commander listed by a well known painting service, The quality is very good to down right excellent. This fellow's figures always bring a high price, I quess it depend what the market will bear and the quality of the work! Do single figures bring a higher price per figure than lots? oldbob

Interesting subject indeed. Firstly, the QUALITY of painted miniatures is entirely subjective, eye of the beholder and all that. I've seen people wax lyrical over bought minis that personally I think might have painted with a toothbrush! I go for the Dallimore/Weiss/Dean look but have heard them described by others as cartoonish. Go,uh, figure. To me, these excellent painters paint their commissions as they would paint figs for themselves. That's quality work.

Secondly, people will pay what they can afford for a mini/s they desire. Nobody is FORCING anyone else to buy painted figures. I'd happily pay £15.00 GBP a foot figure, £25.00 GBP a cavalryman for a mini I want.

Finally I'm the lucky owner of several of the late Bill Brewer's Essex 25mm Mtd Knights that I was given many years ago to encourage me in my own efforts. What are they worth? They are priceless to me.

I look at these suggested prices and think how lucky I am. Fernando charges $3 USD for their best 25mm infantry figure and $6 USD for their best cavalry figure. I also paint and have a critical eye when it comes to what is an acceptable paint job. I have yet to get a figure from Sri Lanka that has not met my critera. Guys, keep paying those prices!

In painting lead figures there'as a balance between
1. cost for someone else to paint,
2. time for the user to paint, and
3. desired quality (which is usually related to the use of the figure).

Here's my decision tree for paying:
Step 1: are the figures primarily a single color (usually post Napoleonic period or chain mail if ancietn), then I'll do these myself. If not….
Step 2: if they are multi-colored for mass units I'll send off to Sri Lanka (Sorry, friends, but it's a globalized economy thanks to the Internet.) If step 1 and 2 don't apply then….
Step 3: If it's for display purposes in some form (i.e. single or key figures) then I'll pay more, and I'll pay someone else.

A lot of it comes down to affordability. How many of us are driving low quality cheap cars rather than expensive hand-made, custom disigned automobiles? A professional figure painter can complain about the cheaper, ugly figures he sees on the table, but if I can't afford the professional I have to settle for mediocre.

Ray

I've looked at this market extensively and have found it extremely hard to find painters whose work I really liked that would fit in well with my own style which definitely isn't in the Dallimore/Dean school but a bit more subtle.

In the end one name kept coming up on asking around but alas he is no longer taking on new work. However if I could send one of my own master to the Far East and have it copied en masse for £1.50 GBP but I somehow doubt it would really match the subtle colours of my original which don't come straight from a bottle and are all mixed. Perphaps its worth a try?

Timmo — everything's worth a try! Send over a few figs for a test and see how it works. I like Philgreg.

Hi All,

I'm a figure painter and I love these debates because your talking about the art market in general and personal taste.

What one person thinks is great another hates with with a passion.

I think it comes down to this, if you like it and can afford it then buy it!!

I've included a link to my site below

link

Harry Gaming and collecting

Regards,

Ron
wargames-den.co.uk

to 95th Rgt: I suspect that your painted minis failed to sell because they are of an uncommon period, not because of the price.

"…think Git is a bad word like Mook! I think that is a slur against those of us with Scottish ancestery as Mooks are to Arabs."

That's a real word? I thought George Castanza made it up

I have been painting and selling since the middle 70's, mail order, conventions, pvt clients, and most recently Ebay! Hey guys, the writing is on the wall!! Overseas high quality artists for cheap as dirt wages will be the decline if not the end of traditional painting services. A few may hang on doing very special work , but it is nearly all over for the rest of us. Thankfully I am as old as dirt also and ready to retire anyway. It was a great trip for me!!

That sucks for the rest of us . .

docdennis,
amen. I am a painter (of fine art paintings, not miniatures… my work is on yessy.com/umbra ) and I have always been accused of having too low prices. "You are undervaluing yourself" and all that stuff.

Now, enter the picture a few talented Chinese painters -- much better than me from technical point of view. They teach in art academies and sell their work on ebay to pay the tuition of good students. I saw auctions where realistic oil paintings (we're talking turn-of-the-Century quality nudes and portraits, not modern "blobs" of paint spattered on a canvas) sold for $20 USD or thereabouts. I couldn't accept a commission for such pieces if the payment offered were less than $1000- 1200-- it takes 20 days of work to do something like that. And these guys are BETTER than me.

Globalisation is affecting ALL handmade goods. We go towards a world model where goods are made in poor countries and are bought by rich countries… until the poor countries make some money in the process and become rich, standards rise and they want to be paid more.

That being said, locally a "wargaming good quality" paintjob on an average DBA army is around 50 euros.

The original Ottomans in the yellow labels by Battlehonors was dis-continued when they released the red label Old Glory 15mm Ottomans for the 1700s and 1800s.

The legs and other thin parts were getting hard to cast with old molds.

The NEW green label Ottomans are for an earlier era but some troops can be mixed with the later troops.

I suppose that as a director in a figure painting company based in Thailand (Siam Painting Services)that my views are biased, but as a wargamer as well perhaps I get to see both sides of the question.

As I have got older my eyes are failing me and I simply cannot paint my own figures any more, similarly my friend Graham had problems finding UK painters who could paint to a high standard, at a reasonable price, and in a reasonable timeframe as most that fitted these requirements were overwhelmed by orders.

The solution for us was to open a small company in Thailand where Graham lives for half the year aimed at painting our own figures and those of our friends. For me this actually took some soul searching as a life long trade union activist I was concerned about exploiting a developing country, however I am now totally convinced that our decision was the right one to take in principle, as a global marketplace means that our perceptions of the old 1st, 2nd and 3rd World orders needs to be reviewed.

It is no longer acceptable simply to label a country as 3rd World etc without considering in detail what that means. Our painters are paid per piece they complete to required standard. Their average monthly take home wage is equivalent to that of a Civil Servant or bank employee, and far far in excess of the earnings of the majority of workers in the area, especially those engaged in farming which is the majority employer.

So based on an internal comparison our painters are well paid, but on an external comparison most UK workers would not even wake up for the salary we pay never mind get out of bed. Our new manager left the USA to work for us as a bit of an adventure, and took a huge cut in income to do so. But because of the relatively cheaper cost of living in Thailand, he is actually no worse off in his normal standard of living.

For this reason we can charge £2.50 GBP to paint and base a 28mm model to a very high standard, while a UK painter may charge £4.00 GBP to £15.00 GBP for a similar job. And our charge included all the overheads that go with running a company, the taxes, the social security payments, the premises etc etc that a sole trader will not incur.

But that does not make the UK painter overpriced, or the overseas painter exploited or undervalued. I agree with Rons comments above if you want the best quality possible you must be prepared to pay top dollar, if you want very high quality you must also be prepared to pay more, but will benefit from shopping around and see what is in the market place. If you find a painting service whose style you like, and you think is value for money then that is who you should go to.

For the painter looking to set a value on their product the key is not what other people charge, but what your products sell for and continue to attract more customers. This is what we have done, and our customer base has grown, and so has our staff. And if you think that running a painting company is money for old rope, think again. Managing staff, suppliers,and customers expectations and demands, and trying to handle a bureacratic import export and employment system is a nightmare in itself.

Is the writing on the wall for the traditional Painting Service? I really don't know, but based on my own uk experience I would say not. Most of the painters I have used in the past are still saying they have packed order books. Meanwhile our own customer base is growing weekly, and the orders are getting bigger and bigger. maybe the traditional painting services were simply not able to handle the potential market that was lying dormant in the hobby? The USA experience may well be different, but I leave others to comment on that.

Customers often complain to me about the pricing and standards of other painting services, but they also complain to me about our prices being too high compared with others, but still buy from us. I hear complaints about delays in receiving orders from other services, while I have a continual struggle with meeting estimated turnaround times, and understand only too well what problems can arise to make an estimated delivery times a fantasy.

When things go wrong, communication, staright and honest is the key, not sullen silence. I try and explain what has happened and why, put it right or refund monies. And because I understand all the problems and difficulties faced by those providing a painting service to the hobby I never criticise another painting service. When Siam Painting Services and Big battalions are perfect in everything we do I might do, but somehow I doubt it!

Did not mean to offend anyone here. Overseas painters and their managers simply put out too good a product, at too good a price, with good service, for the traditional US or European to compete with in many cases. It is not a bad thing or something to try to combat, it is simply a marketplace reality that benifits many more people in the hobby by far than it hurts! I am sure that there is and will continue to be painters that will adjust to this in ingenious ways. I am sure that some customers will remain loyal, and I am sure that some will simply refrain from buying from the new sources for less than logical reasons!!For me it is a simple matter of normal growth that has effected industry after industry in the past decades for both much good and some evil. Why should this little industry be immune??

Hi docdennis, sorry if it seemed I was getting at you, that was not my intention. I read all the postings with some interest. Usually I tend to lurk and not get involved in debates online as I find comments can be misinterpreted and lead to heated exchanges, but this time I thought I would use the opportunity to set out some of my rambling thoughts on the subject.

Having reread the posting, I rambled a long way!

BigBattalions

All Good!

Hi All,

Please note this is NOT directed at big battalions as I don't know where my customers buy from. Also I specialise in AB Napoleonic 15mm painting for the high end market and I don't know if this is something that Big Battalions cover.

My customers have reported that it's not all rosey in the China and Asian painter markets. Common complaints are inconsistancy of colour, style and detail level of figures from one batch to the next (this is not to say some units are very good). Also getting hit with import duties into the UK that they were not expecting, I beleive this is 22.5% made up of 17.5% VAT + 5% not sure what for.

Some of my customers buy China and Asian produced figures for bulk line units and buy guard/special units and Personality figures from painters like myself.

Figures from 3rd world countries in my view offer very good value for money and obviously have an appeal to some sectors of the market and more power to there elbow. They have definately enriched the market and made gaming more accesible.

Ron.
wargames-den.com

my website, not been updated recently though-i am in the process of getting a new one.
my prices for basic wargaming standard:
hi, i am offering my services as a painter to anyone who want's figures doing. I am UK based and but am willing to do any figures for those who are based outside of here. I will paint any figures but have particular knowledge on napoleonic, ww1 and ww2. I prefer 15mm but will paint anthing. I am very reasonably priced:
75p per infantry figure (15-25mm)
£1.00 GBP per cavalry (15-25mm)
£1.50 GBP GBP extra detailed figures eg. command stands (15-25mm)
50p infantry(less than 15mm)
75p Cavalry (less than 15mm)
£1.00 GBP GBP extra detailed figures eg. command stands (less than 15mm)
£1p infantry figures (more than 25mm)
£1.50 GBP GBP Cavalry (more than 25mm)
£2.00 GBP GBP extra detailed figures eg. command stands(more than 25mm)
Tanks/vehicles done to order.
Postage to be paid for by customer.
also i will now varnish figures for an additional 30p per figure per coat. Matt/Gloss
Basing also available to order.
For any orders please contact:
peter_scholey@hotmail.com

Re Ron's comments above, he is correct there are hidden costs involved in purchasing from Asian companies and importing into the EU. VAT is the biggest problem and this varies from country to country. We offer two services direct post, which can be expensive for big orders, and is a lottery whether the Post Office pick you up for duty. If they do, not only are you hit for VAT and an import charge, but also a handling charge.

For those who are not in such a rush and are willing to wait for our shipment of stock figures we soak up the handling and import charge, but pass on the VAT charge, however this also offers huge savings over normal postal service. We then arrange post via the internal UK service or for collection at shows. This seems to satisfy most customers.

Customers in the USA and Canada do not seem to get hit as hard on imports for some reason and normal postal services and charges are the usual expense.

Overall it is up to the customer to make the choice. I would like to think that given time and experience that our painters will be able to match the top notch quality produced by Ron, but it is a constant struggle.

You have to keep reminding yourself that the uniform information we all carry in our heads, or can extract in seconds from a book are totally alien to our painters, they simply do not understand how important it is to us that the edge on a shoulder board is the correct shade of blue!!!

I sent over some LOTR figures to be painted for display, with some very general painting instructions re colour etc. When I got the models back they were beautifully painted but in bright even garish colours with flesh tones ranging from white to blue via purple. I was angry and demanded an explanation from our puzzled supervisor. Thete explained that they had translated Fantasy as Mythology, and our painters had used the colours linkd with traditional Thai mythology, something I simply had not considered. A valuable learning experience to me, never to take anything for granted when dealing with different cultures.

So the most important thing for us to check is quality, and when you have full order books, and staff working overtime mistakes can happen (though I have to say consistency in shade and colour of Napoleonic uniforms is as much a fanatsy as Middle Earth judging by contemporary accounts). QC is far easier for a one man show to control, but the time taken to obtain such perfection is often reflected in the price or in the time taken to deliver.

Like everything else, this is a balancing act, and the customer is the one who will make the final judgement.

Incidently like Ron we do concentrate on the top end of the market when it comes to our stock figures using AB and Eureka sourced in Australia for our 15mm Napoleonics etc.

I dont agree with the cheap Asian stuff being the end for every other painter.. no offense to those guys but its cheap cos its not high quality. there will always be those who are prepared to pay decent money for decent figures painted to a decent standard.

I meant to add, Ive still not seen painted wargame figures from an Asian country painted to a high standard that are cheap.

LOL, then all I can say is that you have not seen our stock. Of course you may not think we are cheap, £100.00 GBP for a 24 man 28mm unit painted and based is not really cheap, but comparatively it is.

Last year our stock was checked out by the Perrys in Antwerp, they commented on how cheap the units were and on the high quality.

Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and tastes vary

Wasnt taking the urine out of your painting, Your prices aint bargain basement but neither is your painting which I thought was very nice.