"How Long Can The Western Consensus On The Ukraine War Hold?" Topic

Putin has long since won this war. Ukraine will not join NATO, NATO's very existence is in question, the world is no longer unipolar, Russia has returned to the ranks of "great powers"… This alone is enough to justify all the efforts and costs with interest.
Now there is a struggle over how exactly the dividends from the changes that have taken place will be divided)))
Putin does not want to end the war without consolidating the results achieved.
Zelensky also does not want the war to end, because this is physical death for him and the end of a career for his "entourage".
Europe does not want the war to end, since this will create a huge political crisis within it. Enormous funds were wasted, and careless policies will put the European elites in the position of losers.
Only the United States needs the war to end, since Russia is not an enemy for the United States. They have a different enemy and the United States needs Russia if not as an ally, then at least as a neutral.

Oh yes, And the whole world is facing a crisis comparable in size to the "Great Depression". And someone will have to pay the costs… The predators must decide whose carcass will become the "sacred sacrifice")))

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Now matter what Putin and his cronies will claim victory. There was never any doubt of that in the West. But IMO and more importantly others, Putin's victory would be marginal at best.

What were the objectives or victory conditions ?

Putin stops Ukraine joining NATO … +1

2 more nations join NATO in direct response to Putin invasion … -1

Russia lost 1/2 of its Armor/Mech forces and hundreds of thousands of troops plus other assets. Including 1/3 of their Black Sea Fleet … -1

Putin causes hundreds of thousands of deaths and billions of dollars of destruction in Ukraine … -1

Destruction of billions of $ of Russian infrastructure inside Russia … -1

Putin held the Crimea … +1

Russia occupied about 20%(?) of Ukraine … 0[to many losses for too few gains].

Putin's invasion woke NATO up to the fact that Russia is still a threat to NATO/Europe … Causing many in NATO to rearm, up spending $ on NATO "dues", etc. … -1

Off the top of my head. There may be more … but doing the math … Putin and Russia are the biggest losers …

Save for all the dead … That fact can never be anything more than a complete tragedy.

Putin put Russia on the list of Dark and Marginal Nations… forced to trade and deal with the worst on the planet…

Not to mention the economic and cultural consequences for its people.

He proved that his famous second-best army in the world is a paper tiger… if it weren't for nuclear weapons, no one would respect it…

The diplomatic damage is unparalleled…

With its declining population… it wiped out hundreds of thousands of people in one fell swoop (so far)

It exposed the deep degradation and corruption of its military…

It clearly revealed that Russian society remains as brutal and bloody as it was in its early days…

I'd rather not continue…

Armand

Putin's tasks have been outlined by himself since 2007 ("Munich speech"). The goals that the West has come up with for him are just your own fantasies)))
1. Putin did not intend to conquer Ukraine – he needed its neutral status. He achieved this. If a loyal government had remained in Kyiv, Ukraine would not have suffered any territorial or other losses at all. Crimea and other captured territories are just a side effect of the conflict.
2. Yes, two countries joined NATO. But if the US leaves it, it will not matter))) NATO turned out to be not as scary as I previously assumed. NATO retreated.
3. Russia lost some military resources, mostly obsolete ones. But it gained a lot of military experience. Thanks to this conflict, defense production and science have been revived in Russia. The losses will be quickly replenished, and the demand for Russian weapons on the foreign market has already grown significantly.
4. Thanks to the sanctions, Russia diversified its supplies of resources and products to world markets. Now Russia has largely freed itself from dependence on the West. And this process will continue.
5. Yes, people died and the destruction is significant. This is the price of most violent coups that the West constantly arranges in various countries, interfering in their internal affairs.

Tango, I am too lazy to answer your nonsense ;)

It's tiring to read so many lies…

"Russia's share of global arms exports has decreased from over 20% between 2015 and 2019 to around 8% between 2020 and 2024.

Decline in Share:
Russia's share of global arms exports has been declining, particularly since the start of the Russia-Ukraine war in 2022.

Russia's arms sales plummet as India, others seek new suppliers

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Impact of Conflict:
The Russia-Ukraine war has significantly impacted Russia's arms export figures, with a decrease in global share and a decline in overall export values.

Specific Data Points:
2014-2018: Russia accounted for 21% of global arms sales.
2019-2023: Russia's share dropped to 11%.
2020-2024: Russia's share was nearly 8%.

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"If a loyal government had remained in Kyiv Ukraine would not have suffered any …"

How shameful to write this… loyal to whom? Who are the Russians to judge whether a foreign government should be respected or not for its loyalty to Russia itself? In a value judgment, this is a clear admission of guilt…

The US is not going to leave NATO… whether this president wants it or not… the commitment goes far beyond a single leader… unfortunately, to sink your dreams, the US is a true democracy… it does not define its actions like those in Iran, Cuba, North Korea, or Russia, which perpetuate autocrats in power…

" Russia lost some military resources, mostly obsolete ones…."

It is clear that Russia has used all its arsenal (except nuclear) including what its allies gave it… and if its latest attacks are on donkeys, horses, bicycles, skateboards, golf carts, old vans and civilian cars of all kinds… everything new or old has been blown up…

"But it gained a lot of military experience…"

They haven't learned anything… they're still using the same old meat wave tactics… sacrificing people until the enemy runs out of bullets…

I'd rather not continue…

Armand

Yes, Tango, you don't need to continue – you shouldn't even start))) Just give a link to the site "Ukrainian Truth")))

As a lawyer (actually, a PhD in International Law)… your defense is very poor…to say something not too aggressive…

"Yes, Your Honor… everything they say about us is true… but the Ukrainians are worse…"

If it were in court… they'd give you life in prison…

Which is the least your beloved leader deserves…

Armand

I'm not defending myself))) I don't want to waste my time refuting various nonsense. I now want to ignore any polemics with you.
And I wouldn't want a lawyer like you to consider anyone's case. You are completely biased and dismiss any facts that contradict your sympathies…

There are only of us who said nonsense and lies… but I understand the brainwash you suffered since you open your eyes… best of luck to you and your family.

Armand

Oh yes, the surefire explanation for your opponent's disagreement with you: "He's been brainwashed"))) Where's the guarantee that it's not your brain that's been brainwashed? ;)
You're a democrat, maybe even a liberal, which means you should recognize the right of any other person to have a different point of view. Although wait a minute – today's democracy allows you to shut up anyone who disagrees…

No one is telling you to shut up… this isn't Russia… but it's not easy to let go of so much false propaganda and lies of Soviet/Nazi origin.

No one buys that your opinions are disinterested or free… it's what you've been taught in your country, and for your people, that's the truth… but don't come selling it here believing we're all going to let it slide.

There was never any doubt that you've had the freedom to say whatever you want… because this isn't a Soviet, Iranian, Cuban, or North Korean blog… at least you should be grateful for and accept the differences and not complain like a child when someone stands up to your lies or propaganda.

I clearly perceive in your texts the utter Soviet sense of inferiority…

Oh!… you are all wrong… Oh!… you are all bad… Oh!… you all lie, and especially to us… the poor people of my country… Now!… because of that… we are going to invade you and destroy your civilization… because even though no one loves us, we are strong… we are invincible… we are the best, and we don't have humanitarian feelings that make us weak like you…

Armand

You made me laugh))) I came to tell you another point of view. Well, you know, it's like in court – there is a prosecutor, there is a lawyer… And in a dispute, both of them find out where the truth is. Everyone who reads this is the judge.
But you apparently think that you have a monopoly on the truth))) That's what makes you funny to me ;)

I couple of quick corrections.

"You're a democrat, maybe even a liberal, which means you should recognize the right of any other person to have a different point of view. "

In the U.S. these are the least accepting of an alternative point of view. Just go to our College campuses.

"Democracies". Other than some Swiss Cantons, there are no "true" democracies in the world, to my knowledge. The U.S. was never a Democracy. Most are mixes of democracy and republic.

Sorry to interrupt. 🙂

Least accepting? Look what happens when alternative points of view are put to the current admistration!
Who, incidentally, seems to reiterate the belief (that I assume will please Cuprum) that Ukraine started the war.

OK, carry on T and C.

Sil, let's ask Bill Maher. He even autographed Bill's list of bad things Trump said about Bill. Then walk into any pro-Hamas protest or Tesla burning orgies and espouse an alternative view. Even an Ivy League college and try to talk about "no men in women's sports". 😉

Subject: Mr. Maher Goes to Washington | Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO) – YouTube

YouTube link

Tango01: Above you say "As a lawyer (actually, a PhD in International Law) …"

For the sake of clarification: are you claiming that you are a lawyer with a PhD in International Law?

Yes I have two PHD… why are you so amazed?

Besides… Happy to make a Russian laugh in the horrible circumstances that are being experienced in that country…

I never claimed to have a monopoly on the truth… once again putting falsehoods in another's mouth… I vehemently stand by my opinion… that's all…

Armand

Silurian, the war was started by the West by openly supporting the nationalist coup against the legitimate government in Ukraine. Ukraine is a victim… They were deceived and thrown into a suicidal situation, splitting the country into pieces along national lines. But the West will never admit it…

Tango01, it is not for you to judge whether we in Russia are living in a terrible situation))) You haven't been here, have you? Come and look for yourself. It's not that difficult – you apparently have the necessary resources.
And then visit Ukraine – I will be very interested to read your impressions of these visits.
I do not deny you the right to have your own opinion – on the contrary. Give me a reason to doubt my opinion. There are things that may escape my attention and your help will be invaluable. But please – just not Ukrainian propaganda. It is even more primitive and boring than Russian ;)

Meanwhile, in the news last night, four journalists imprisoned for five years for supporting Navalny. They join the lawyers already in prison for doing, er, lawyer things for Navalny. And a grandmother imprisoned for criticising the Ukraine "Special Operation"

So be careful what you say, Cuprum.

Dagwood, are they alive? What luck. If they were opposition journalists in Ukraine, they wouldn't have a chance. Even if they were American citizens:

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Meanwhile:

I wonder what the citizens of these countries were doing on Russian territory?

Speaking as someone with zero power but friends and family across the political spectrum, there is very little broad public support among my narrow sample set (in a very liberal part of the US) for continued US involvement in Ukraine.

Ukraine War support has devolved into a political litmus test for maybe 20% of the public who see pro-Ukraine as a public display of support for the Democrat Party…. and where I live the "Slava Ukraine" signs and flags have been quietly coming down. One nice elderly lefty lady still has a Ukraine flag heart on her garage door, but she at least painted over the image-icon of Zelensky she'd painted in the center of the heart. It's now a large, sad, color mismatched heart…

The other 80% of Friends & Family are baffled and disgusted by Zelensky's refusal to strike a peace deal -- if HE doesn't want peace, why should we care? It's HIS country, let him deal with it WITHOUT OUR money!

SB I see a lot of the same in this area as well. The Ukraine flags appear on the homes with the Coexist signs, Rainbow flags, etc.. also had Harris signs during the election.

I laugh at the protesters at the Tesla sites, who also carry Palestinian and Ukrainian flags or stickers.

35thOVI+1 --- a source of amusement to me that the same people who put the "Coexist" and "Hate Has no Home Here" signs on their lawns are the most likely to key their neighbor's Telsa! Also amusing that many of THEM are Telsa owners, and I see many of them driving around with a bumper sticker that says something like "I bought my Tesla before Elon went crazy," or "Member of the Telsa car-loving Elon hater's club."

…trying to convince their peaceful liberal neighbors not to attack them!! ROFLMAO!

Xi and Putin Drive Japan and NATO Closer Together

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Armand

SB +1. I have a liberal in my neighborhood who has one and it is no longer outside his garage. I have a conservative family down the street who have one as well, it is out all the time. 😂

the war was started by the West by openly supporting the nationalist coup against the legitimate government in Ukraine. Ukraine is a victim… They were deceived and thrown into a suicidal situation, splitting the country into pieces along national lines. But the West will never admit it…

Wow talk about "spin" and just more Russian/Putin propaganda … 🤥🤥🤥🤥

Yeah, real cunning plan Vlad, invade Ukraine and two more neighboring countries join NATO.

Putin invade Ukraine to save them from the West … Yeah right ! Is that some sort of joke ? "Don't down my back and tell me it's raining." …

What next ?

The Earth is Flat ? 🌎
The Moon is made of green cheese ? 🌕 [or Swiss 🧀]
Pigs can fly ? 🐷

Putin was not defending Ukraine from the West. He defended Russia from NATO, which intended to get very close to Moscow. And he did it very well.

It's easy to understand. Imagine that tomorrow Mexico (or Canada) decides to enter into a military alliance with China… Will the US remain indifferent? China and Mexico will give you the most sincere assurances that this alliance is not directed against the US, and any sovereign country has the right to enter into an alliance with anyone)))
And then they will start killing Mexicans who disagree with this decision (if there are any).

Putin's spy chief names the 4 countries 'first to suffer' in new WW3 warning

"Russia has singled out four NATO member states it would retaliate against first in the event of an all-out conflict. Sergey Naryshkin, director of the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR), named Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania as "the first to suffer"…"

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Russia escalates attacks on Ukrainian civilians

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Armand

Let's read what he said in the original source))) Why read distorted statements in the lying press:

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How Ukrainian authorities exposed their citizens to Russian missiles in Sumy. Bloody provocations are a constant Ukrainian tactic:

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Note how the last link mentions the death of the commander of the Ukrainian 27th artillery brigade in a missile strike on Sumy. A local online publication posted an obituary mentioning this fact. But then all references to it were deleted. However, Ukrainian deputies and the mayor of one of the cities stated that the strike was carried out on a military meeting and more than 60 Ukrainian soldiers were killed. Holding a meeting of officers in the middle of the city – that's a real crime.

They haven't managed to delete the information from Wikipedia yet. Ukrainian provocateurs are doing a bad job:

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Here is another surviving report about this in the Ukrainian press:

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Dirty, bloody provocateurs, ready to kill their own children in order to retain power.
Give them your money and missiles already, before they kill another hundred or two of their own citizens to make you feel sorry for them…

Oh My Land, enough with all the links!!!

Anyone can find some source that will support whatever view you have. It doesn't mean that it is true. Just state your position and let it go.

The only thing now that is stopping to end the war is Putin …

Couldn't agree with you more, Legion.

It's a shame some posters above would like to conflate a support of Ukraine, the victim (who clearly in their eyes should just roll over at this point – after all, they've "won already", right?), with a certain party. Like that's all it's about. Perhaps in their eyes…

Grattan54, empty chatter without links is meaningless. I provided links to Ukrainian sources. There is definitely no pro-Russian information there.

Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP 18 Apr 2025 5:33 p.m. PST
The only thing now that is stopping to end the war is Putin

Seems more like Zelensky is the road block to me, every time there's hope of a ceasefire he opens his mouth and kills it. Dude doesn't want peace, then let him endure more war without US cash.

Surilian +1

The US is pushing for peace or now the POTUS et al are saying, if nothing is coming of this. They may withdraw and let the rest of NATO handle it[if they can?]. Too much blood, treasure and time was and is being wasted.

Again, bottom line the West knows who started this all. For no real good reason. Save for blatant imperialism from one side … We all know who …

We all know who started it, and we also know who won't call it off…

"We all know who started it, and we also know who won't call it off…"

Indeed. We all know.
It is Putin.
And Rossians.

AP:

"Russian President Vladimir Putin announced a temporary Easter ceasefire in Ukraine starting Saturday, citing humanitarian reasons, as Russia and Ukraine swapped hundreds of captured soldiers in the largest exchange since Moscow's full-scale invasion started over three years ago.

According to the Kremlin, the ceasefire will last from 6 p.m. Moscow time (1500 GMT) on Saturday to midnight (2100 GMT) following Easter Sunday.

"We assume that the Ukrainian side will follow our example. At the same time, our troops must be ready to repel possible violations of the truce and provocations from the enemy, any of its aggressive actions," Putin said at a meeting with Chief of the General Staff Valery Gerasimov, in a video shared by the Kremlin's Press Service.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy called the ceasefire "another attempt by Putin to play with human lives." He wrote on X that "air raid alerts are spreading across Ukraine," and "Shahed drones in our skies reveal Putin's true attitude toward Easter and toward human life.""

Also

"The two sides meanwhile exchanged hundreds of POWs on Saturday. Russia's Ministry of Defense said that 246 Russian service members were returned from territory controlled by Kyiv, and that "as a gesture of goodwill" 31 wounded Ukrainian POWs were transferred in exchange for 15 wounded Russian soldiers in need of urgent medical care.

Zelenskyy said that 277 Ukrainian "warriors" have returned home from Russian captivity."

SBminisguy
And anyone else who wants to see it. Part of the ant Trump protests today. Get around the 1 minute 10 second mark and start looking at the flags. 😂😅

Subject: DrHei on X: "NYC is full for 50501. packed crowd. signs everywhere. people marching against the trump regime with zero hesitation t.co/IsJv9sAq7J / X


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Saw Putin is playing nice for Easter. But don't trust him … ever …

A disappointment after the many campaign comments last year. I thought this was going to be the proof of Trump's oft stated abilities, oft stated here in any case. For those who believed this could end in a fair settlement, forget it. As I have said before, Putin is calling the shots.

Gaza, apparently easy to fix last summer, now not that easy. Like the Houthis, who have absorbed a billion dollars worth of explosions and seem to love it.

These are hard reality of this is that it's not easy after all. But after all the talk, I was hoping for a little more than zapping everyone with tariffs which the average American will suffer with.

Tortorella + 1

Lies on campaign…The bad thing is that people buy them… and then… the reality…

The only agenda I can see so far is the collapse (as soon as possible) of Ukraine…

Armand

Trump is ready to give up on ending the war he said he could end in 24 hours. Hmm. No art of the deal here.

It would seem that the well-studied and compromised peace plan was simply to pressure Zelensky into accepting what is unacceptable to any nation that considers itself independent, cutting off his supplies (whether he accepted or not) and extending a hand to Russia to consider them friends…

Of course, any amateur would have realized that not even Ukraine would give up and that Russia would gladly spit on the outstretched hand.

Now… all that remains is to first act surprised, then annoyed, and finally angry, leaving the issue completely aside.

Let Ukraine be fixed without a single more bullet and let Russia do whatever it wants…

I hope his other campaign promises don't end as badly as this one…

Armand

The 20th April is designated as dead line for Putin's Rossian warmongers.
Putin don't stop.

Is the US ruled by POTUS or by KGB agent Krasnov?
The Judgement Day is here now.

Again, If the POTUS does nothing else … he shut down the border and starting deportation. I can say no more without getting DH'd …

Regardless US deaths are declining from drugs[and other crimes from border crossers, etc.] that the Chicoms gave to the drug cartels. Then those drugs, etc. came across the border resulting in dead Americans.

That is the most important thing, IMO that had to be done. Of all the things that needed to be done to "fix" the USA …

+1 for sure Legion…. I agree.

But the cartels have switched to meth. It's also made here in US, but not always as potent. Cartels and their American processors cut it with other stuff, dangerous, use is surging. We are not done with this problem.

The decline in fentanyl overdoses happened in the last year of Biden, not related to Trump. Too little too late for many, but customers are on to new drugs.

Crack is now returning as well, scourge of the Reagan years despite his efforts.

Of course they will find new drugs. Losers always have. The self centered and the ones who can't handle reality. Those you can do nothing for. Only the unfortunate who accidentally got hold of them or the one time experimental user, are the ones you try to prevent.