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"How Long Can The Western Consensus On The Ukraine War Hold?" Topic


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Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP21 Aug 2023 9:23 p.m. PST

US Tells Citizens To Leave Belarus Immediately

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Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP23 Aug 2023 4:45 p.m. PST

Many US citizens should come back home to the US where it is safe …

Ah … wait … some places like many big cities are pretty lawless and deadly too. E.g. Chicago, NYC, LA, DC, Seattle, Portland, etc.

So good luck in any event …

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian23 Aug 2023 7:42 p.m. PST

Aren't a lot of these people dual-citizens?

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP24 Aug 2023 7:44 a.m. PST

Yes AFAIK, many are, but I think all joking aside they may be safer in the US. Depending on where they go once on US soil of course.

It is a prudent reasonable move to get out of a possible warzone. If you can …

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP24 Aug 2023 3:44 p.m. PST

Yes, Legion, Chicago gangs have no missiles! I agree, safer here, no war. FYI those cities you named are not in the top ten for assault. St. Louis, Kansas City, Nashville, Memphis, lots of others, have been having more trouble per 100,000.Urban urban homicide numbers have dropped 10 per cent so far this year. The pandemic was a very weird time.

Even more than dual citizens, people have family in these dangerous and potentially dangerous conflict zones. Cannot imagine what this must feel like.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP24 Aug 2023 4:19 p.m. PST

urban homicide numbers have dropped 10 per cent so far this year.
Because the criminals now generally don't have to kill to get what they want. They just take, why risk killing someone. And they know they will be out on the street within hours. With the current DEI, CRT, etc. going on in the Courts. We see what happens when LEOs are defunded. It becomes Mad Max Thunderdome.

But in many big cities people still get murdered/killed. In some cases, CD when Gang Bangers, etc. get in shoot outs.

IMO I don't have any problem with criminals killing criminals. Too bad sometimes the innocent gets in the way.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP25 Aug 2023 6:43 a.m. PST

LEO funding has increased significantly at all levels. Billions, you can just read the budget. There is no defund initiative except maybe for the FBI by some politicians. But this threatens national security, especially regarding China.

Smash and grab has gone through phases because cops catch these guys on the back end. These are all felonies, nobody is cut loose. CA has the toughest property crime laws in the nation. So it's gets quiet for a while, then resumes.

There needs to be a better way. But be careful of news outlets. They use the videos cops release for outrage ratings support. It looks like every store in America is getting hit and nobody does anything. BS.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP25 Aug 2023 7:03 a.m. PST

LEO funding has increased significantly at all levels.
It had to … but again is that $ being used to good affect ? The LEO and justice system in many big cities are very broken. It is going to take a lot of time to get Law enforcement and the courts, etc., back to being effective.

And yet some still want to not support the police. Some even in the US gov't. Those types keep getting voted in, they are not leaders but activists. Bathed in the light of BLM dogma, CRT, 1619, G. Floyde martyrdom, etc.

The people most effected by defunding the police, etc. are those in low-income minorities communities of large cities. What are their voted in leaders doing ?

The US LEOs have a very big project to get law & order back under control. And yes, many "bad guys" will have to be arrested, be punished serve time, etc. As they broke the law. Some confrontations will occur, some may die in a shoot-out, etc. And IMO it really must begin from the very top …

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP25 Aug 2023 8:50 a.m. PST

I don't think this is a political issue. Some of the worst things I have seen were under the right as well as the left. Does not matter. The extreme left and the extreme right are just noisemakers. The WH in this case made the funding happen through Congress. Really. I read the statements, saw the budget. Nobody wants to study things like the DOJs Safe Neighborhoods Project started by Bush, one example among hundreds. Fingers in the dike. Facts have lost their impact, covered up and distorted for political gain and tv. In our divisions we weaken our response.

I know this is a war and it never ends. The next guy will not fix it, nor the next. It ebbs and flows. It is the modern war we don't game or discuss much.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP25 Aug 2023 11:02 a.m. PST

I take it back…the Modern RPG board seems to address law enforcement. Although not on a grand scale, I imagine.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP25 Aug 2023 3:47 p.m. PST

Differences Grow Between The U.S. And Ukraine Over Counteroffensive Strategy


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Germany's Foreign Minister Admits Russian Sanctions Are Not Working


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The British Army Now Has Fewer Tanks Than Switzerland

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The US Is Presently Involved In 15 ‘Shadow Wars'

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Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP25 Aug 2023 4:23 p.m. PST

I don't think this is a political issue.
Hard to think that with all that is going on. Maybe that's just me …

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP25 Aug 2023 5:24 p.m. PST

I get where you come from on this, Legion, and I respect your opinion.

Looking at history, crime rate changes rarely match up with political leaders actions or abilities. The worst years for crime ever in the US were the 80s by far, probably driven by crack. The introduction of CompStat in the 90s began to change PD enforcement responses and strategies for the better. There have been three relatively brief periods of increases in crime stats since then, but over-all crime is less per 100,000 even now then it was in the 80s.

Crime rate perceptions and fear are strongly driven by media.

soledad26 Aug 2023 12:36 a.m. PST

Tortorella

I have no knowledge about crime rates in the US comparing different eras. I do not know if the -80s were worse than the -90s (for example) or how those days compare with today.

What I wonder is if violence during the -80 were within a "smaller circle" that is murders and such were between gang members and did not impact on "normal society" (that much, there is always some impact, but generally speaking)

Now days violence seems to be more random with mass shootings which can "happen to anybody" .That breeds fear. The fear that it might happen to me, there is no way I can protect myself from a mass shooter. Compared with the -80 when gang members shot and killed gang members (yes innocent by standers could get hit but to a lesser degree than school or mall shootings today.

I do not know I am right, just thinking it might influence fear today.

Also todays media/information overload. I can read about a shooting in Nowhereville Texas but 30 ys ago I could only read what happened in my own neighborhood. Now I am exposed to basically every crime in the civilized world more or less. That breeds irrational fear.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP26 Aug 2023 5:34 a.m. PST

These are great points, Soledad.

There really was a huge wave of crime in the 80s, fueled by the intensity of the crack epidemic, I believe, and maybe the rapid rise of income disparity in the "Greed is good" era. The other great spike in US crime was in the 1920s.

Mass shootings are far more common in this century with the highest numbers in 2018 and 2022. They draw intense media coverage, connected in endless ways by the web and cable tv. They are definitely causes of mass anxiety and we have access to lots of details. You hit the nail on the head regarding how people react.

The National Violent Death Reporting System is run by the CDC and has a lot of info. link I know it's the CDC, once revered, now distrusted.

The estimated number of gangs has remained steady in recent years, somewhere over 30,000. Homicides have grown in urban areas where gangs operate. Firearm numbers and access have increased. They have their own wars.

We have gone from modest crime data base tech to all kinds of new tools. I think if politicians and media stopped cherry picking this and actually became more knowledgeable and factual it would benefit everyone.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP26 Aug 2023 8:19 a.m. PST

I get where you come from on this, Legion, and I respect your opinion.
Back at ya !

Crime rate perceptions and fear are strongly driven by media.
Like everything else …

Regardless, I live in a suburb next to a very large rule area. Chances of the problems that we see in most big cities with crime is very small. It can't be denied that many large cities have a serious crime problem. But again, many of us are armed just in case.

Recently a Country/Western song came out about this sort of topic. I'm sure you have heard it in the media. And many in the left berated, etc., it. But the message was clear – We don't put up with that Bleeped text here …

The estimated number of gangs has remained steady in recent years, somewhere over 30,000. Homicides have grown in urban areas where gangs operate. Firearm numbers and access have increased. They have their own wars.
Like any criminals[or terrorists] as long they keep killing each other is fine with me but CD happens. Innocents died and the criminals don't care.

Firearm numbers and use will not decrease. However, IMO the major way to stop this is a strong LEO presents with strong support by Mayors, Governers, DAs, judges, etc. That can't/won't happen in this current liberal/left/CRT, DEI, etc. environment. Starting from the top down. As the saying goes, "Need a new Sheriff in town !" …

Soledad +1 yes some very good points …

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP26 Aug 2023 11:08 a.m. PST

I agree about strong enforcement. I am pretty sure we have it in more places than we realize and that's really my point. The job gets done. There are always people getting away with stuff in every era. Where to find a new Sheriff is the big burning question.

I really like that other new country song…that guy is real!

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP26 Aug 2023 5:04 p.m. PST

Sheriff is the big burning question.
That is the $64,000 USD question. With few to no answers, IMO… But we know how to get law & order back into our big cities. It is all the usual suspects. Starts with getting rid of weak, feckless, politized woke CRT, DEI, etc. mayors, governors, DAs, judges, etc.


I really like that other new country song…that guy is real!
And you know it is good as it really Bleeped texted off most of the left, liberal, woke, CRT, DEI, BLM, etc. types.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP26 Aug 2023 7:08 p.m. PST

And, it turns out that the song was about all those people on the right as well! A man of the actual people!

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP27 Aug 2023 8:39 a.m. PST

Yes those Men are very few and far between. And certainly, very few of them in Congress that includes females too.

SBminisguy28 Aug 2023 12:29 p.m. PST

Did Zelensky's Mother in Law just purchase $5 USD Million villa in Egypt? Be nice to have this verified or discredited.

Zelensky's $5 USD Million Villa in Egypt
Luxury villa is located next door to estate owned by Angelina Jolie
Deborah L. Armstrong

link

Ned Ludd29 Aug 2023 3:22 a.m. PST

There seems to be a few stories like this starting to come out.
link
I think the west are prepping their public for dumping ukrain

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Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2023 5:51 a.m. PST

If only we knew! It's a critical question. What happens to our money?

Mr. Al-Abaassy is "quite certain" the villa was purchased with corruptly obtained funds. But there the story ends. It looks bad, it could be true. I am quite certain that we have not been informed on this important point. It's hard to imagine that there has not been at least some corruption somewhere. But a little investigative journalism might help.

Yes it is "unknown if Zelensky will spend his weekends there soon." It's also still unknown if this lady is connected to stolen funds. Maybe Zelensky will pop up soon on a Las Vegas vacation. Also unknown.

I do not think the west uses Brietbart for prepping its public for anything like ending the war.

I liked Jolie as the CIA agent in "Salt". Maybe she can sneak next door and find out more.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2023 6:11 a.m. PST

Zelensky is wealthy, does not need to steal, it would seem. He could easily have bought this property with money he made before the war, when he was a tv star. Tv stars do make money and then go into politics as we have seen.

This article lists some sources for its claims. Who knows?

link

SBminisguy29 Aug 2023 6:50 a.m. PST

Zelensky also says he won't hold any new national elections unless the US pays for it. But we're there to save democracy, right guys??

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2023 7:09 a.m. PST

The plot thickens … Regardless … it is to the USA's]and NATO's] advantage to support/supply the Ukraine to defeat the Russians. A win for Russia is a win for the PRC/CCP.

So, if the $ is not going to where it should, the US needs to investigate. Do they have the ability or will to do it ? The will is the Big question.

I'd just send equipment, of course they could just sell some of it. However, both the USA's current leadership and Ukraine is suspect, IMO … And frankly, I don't think the USA's leadership has the right stuff to make any of this happen. We don't know what is going on behind the curtain. Do I trust either the US or Ukraine's leadership … Not just NO … But Bleeped text NO !

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2023 12:15 p.m. PST

There is always corruption. But how bad is it? Unless you can confirm with more than one source, I am not jumping the gun too much yet. Just insisting does not prove it.

It's not all guns and money. The money is allotted for food, medical, energy assistance. It pays for shifting additional US forces to Europe. It includes replacement costs for US munitions and equipment sent to Ukraine. It includes the cost of training. Much of the funds are used by Ukraine – to buy US equipment from U S companies. It includes DOD overhead for administering the wide variety of aid. And it does not get spent all at once, some of it ongoing for several years. In other words it's all not spent yet.

Regarding some in Congress, and the media, I believe that some may speak without a full grasp of details for their own reasons. I think I am not the only one who wonders about this.

We do know what Zelensky actually said about the election. His request was to the US and the EU, and pertained to costs associated with complex voting logistics and security in combat zones, locating thousands of refugees to include them in the process, and all the other mechanics of elections in wartime that cost money. He refused to divert military spending for this, apparently not allowed under Ukrainian law anyway.

SBminisguy29 Aug 2023 12:17 p.m. PST

Well, it would be nice to know what kind of $$$$ windfall this war is for American Defense companies too. Biden lets slip that the US is low on munitions and is almost out of 155mm artillery ammunition, I'm sure the Defense Contractors are raking in the cash hand over fist (GD makes 155mm arty ammo) -- so to what extent is that a war driver? I can't forget the US SecDef Lloyd Austin has been on the Boards of Raytheon and others.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2023 1:47 p.m. PST

It's supposed to be around 10 billion, I think. Not much by contractor standards. We get over-charged for many things. Some of it is gouging, some of it is less than focused military minds. We are down to about four major contractors as I understand it. Going back to the Clinton administration, I think, somebody thought this consolidation was a good idea.

Every cabinet officer has apparent conflicts. But… Experience in the area being regulated can be a help. So pluses and minuses. We'd need a scorecard to look at the last seven years of so many cabinet secretaries. But in the end we have to depend on their personal integrity and moral character. This can be a stretch sometimes.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2023 3:39 p.m. PST

Newly declassified US intel claims Russia is laundering propaganda through unwitting Westerners

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Armand

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2023 5:14 p.m. PST

Unfortunately, we have some of those…

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2023 5:38 p.m. PST

There is always corruption.

Corruption is part of the human condition … It appears. Especially in high places.

propaganda through unwitting Westerners
The US media in many cases does the same. It is not news reporting, but narrative & agenda driven.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2023 9:11 p.m. PST

New ‘Scalable' Hand Grenades on Way to Army

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Armand

SBminisguy30 Aug 2023 6:54 a.m. PST

We do know what Zelensky actually said about the election. His request was to the US and the EU, and pertained to costs associated with complex voting logistics and security in combat zones, locating thousands of refugees to include them in the process, and all the other mechanics of elections in wartime that cost money. He refused to divert military spending for this, apparently not allowed under Ukrainian law anyway.

But somehow during the depths of WW2 Britain was able to hold elections, as was the US -- which even held elections during its brutal Civil War that killed or injured 25% of the nation's adult male population…

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP30 Aug 2023 7:12 a.m. PST

Agreed, it does raise questions about his commitment to democracy. I am just telling you what he said because some outrage media don't.

There were no general elections in Britain during the war. The July 1945 election was scheduled to allow service people to get home and vote. In the Civil War, there were no voting in combat zone issues in the North, I think. The armies voting wherever they were, at least without missiles and drones to worry about. I don't know about the South.

But I do wonder who Zelensky really is sometimes….

Ned Ludd30 Aug 2023 12:57 p.m. PST

"Newly declassified US intel claims Russia is laundering propaganda through unwitting Westerners"


is that the same us intel that told us about wmd, Trump russian collusion and the stoming of the WH but dosent tell us about the bidens corruption?
Dont p*** up my back then tell me its raining.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP30 Aug 2023 4:50 p.m. PST

Yes, it is very likely the same agencies. You could just go with your own theories and ignore them.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP30 Aug 2023 6:21 p.m. PST

is that the same us intel that told us about wmd, Trump russian collusion and the stoming of the WH but dosent tell us about the bidens corruption?
Dont p*** up my back then tell me its raining.
Bingo ! Seems we agree on a few things Ned !

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP30 Aug 2023 9:24 p.m. PST

Switzerland counters Russia's Anti-Tank Mines in Ukraine with DIGGER D-250


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Germany producing KNDS Boxer RCH155 self-propelled howitzers for Ukraine

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NATO countries so far pledge a total of 103 fighter jets for Ukraine

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Greek Leopard 1A5GR tanks considered to replace blocked RUAG tanks deal for Ukraine

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Czech-supplied Kub-M2 air defense missile systems enter service in Ukrainian army

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Norway Donates F-16 Fighters to Strengthen Ukraine's Air Capabilities


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Norway donates IRIS-T A2A air defense missiles to Ukraine

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Polish company Jakusz donates Wiktoria special container to Ukrainian deminors

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Ukraine receives more French air-launched SCALP cruise missiles


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Armand

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP31 Aug 2023 3:36 p.m. PST

Was A NATO Member State Involved In Launching An Attack On A Russian Airbase?

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White House Says Russia And North Korea ‘Actively Advancing' In Arms Deal Negotiations

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Armand

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP01 Sep 2023 9:28 p.m. PST

American B-2 stealth bomber lands in Norway for first time

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Armand

Andy ONeill02 Sep 2023 5:39 a.m. PST

I'm not sure why it matters "who Zelensky is".
It's unlikely he has wings and a halo.
The West isn't handing him suitcases of cash.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP02 Sep 2023 6:19 a.m. PST

You are right, it doesn't really matter if he is what he seems or not. He has moved on from tv stardom. He doesn't personally need cash. He has done the job.

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP02 Sep 2023 9:14 a.m. PST

He has done the job.
He has his detractors … but bottom line he does get the job done. That is really all that should matter. The US needs to take note.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP05 Sep 2023 9:29 p.m. PST

Is The U.S. About To Deploy Nuclear Weapons To The U.K.?

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When Sweden Officially Joins NATO, It Will Bring More Than Meatballs to the Table

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Armand

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP07 Sep 2023 9:16 p.m. PST

Biographer Says Elon Musk Shut Down The Starlink Over Crimea To Prevent A Ukrainian Drone Attack

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UK to supply Scimitar MK2 Armored Reconnaissance Vehicles to Ukraine


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Ukraine army to receive more armored ambulances


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America's next tank: Army greenlights more aggressive M1 Abrams upgrade

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Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2023 7:31 a.m. PST

Go for it !

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2023 3:40 p.m. PST

Poland Wants To Have The Strongest Land Force In Europe Within Two Years

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Armand

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2023 5:11 p.m. PST

Works for me ! They are so close to Russia it only makes sense.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2023 9:01 p.m. PST

US Likely To Send Long-Range ATACMS Missiles To Ukraine


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Afghanistan delusions blind US on Russia-Ukraine


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Armand

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