"Afrika Korps War Crimes - The "War Without Hate" Myth" Topic

"The North African campaign is often described as 'war without hate" due to the decency shown by the combatants to each other. But the Africa Korps committed many war crimes, most of which are unknown today, sullying its reputation and that of its illustrious commander Field Marshal Erwin Rommel…"

YouTube link

Armand

Now that was interesting. It takes a long time to get to the topic, but I had no idea there was any SS presence, however small, in North Africa.

The execution of Jewish Palestinian prisoners of war is news too. Even German nationals, captured while serving with the French Foreign Legion, were largely spared.

The deserts of North Africa and relatively uninhabited battlegrounds did as much to avoid war crimes against civilians as did any honourable leadership.

The French in North Africa in a camp of Italian prisoners gathered them with the excuse of a distribution of bread then machine-gunned them with hidden weapons on trucks. The British, after the battle of El Alamein, threw hand grenades on groups of Italian prisoners. Two oral testimonies I collected, the first from an Italian prisoner who worked in the camp kitchen, the second from a survivor who kept some shrapnel in his body. Have you read anything about it? Do you know how much news like this there is on this side?

Yes, I had heard of some war crimes happening in the NA Campaign. But not all the details. I'm afraid we all know things like that happens in a conflict. And it was in all theaters/fronts, some worse than others. Of course there is no way to justify it. Maybe explain it to a point. But a war crime is a war crime.

I think I had mentioned before, when I was at the US ARMY Infantry Officers Advance course, at Ft. Benning, GA, in '82-'83. . We deconstructed My Lia during Vietnam. As we were basically being trained/told not to let this type of thing happen, etc. What contributed to it, etc., etc.

We spent a day with the JAG who told us what us war crime is, etc., etc. They used the movie "Breaker Morant" as a teaching aid, etc. Some Nations' histories has more war crimes than others. We can't forget this … but we must learn from it.

I think the only way to not have war crimes occur … is not to have a war …

Thanks.

Armand

Remember what Sherman said. War crimes happen on both sides in war, the purpose of war crimes laws are to stop such things as a matter of policy, such as in the Ukraine. Doesnt seem to work very well though.

History is written by the victors .

Legion 4 – have you read James Webb's novel Fields of Fire. It is an excellent read in it's own right but slowly it builds to show how an event like My Lia can occur. It is a sobering read.

Yes, thank you. I did read it long ago. At one point, books and articles about Vietnam was all I read. And even war gamed many levels of the conflict. Both the French and US/SEATO war there.

When I started ROTC in '75 most of our instructors were active duty Army with a 1 or 2 tours in Vietnam. With SF and Airborne Rangers in the mix. The same was with the cadre at Ft. Benning, GA, The Infantry School …

Then when I went on Active Duty in the 101 in '80. Many of our senior NCOs and Officers had 1 or 2 or more tours in Vietnam. With e.g. the 101, 1st Cav, etc. So I got a first hand perspective from those who were there. And of course, I learned some things I used thru out in my 10+ years as an Infantry Officer. Many on a tactical level.

But yes I would highly recommend Fields of Fire. I think I still have it in my library. May have to check it out again. 👍👍

In the above western desert examples are we talking of people killed in hot blood by enemies who wouldn't accept their surrender, or something else? I am sure if the enemy takes a heavy toll while you capture his position then wants to surrender then he can often expect pretty short shrift.

Trying to surrender can be a very dangerous time. Even when signaling you want to surrender. Troops are excited, maybe angry, etc. And those surrendering could still be killed or wounded.

My Father an Infantry SGT with the 90ID in WWII France. Mentioned a time or two, IIRC. He had to get some of his troops to cease fire while Germans were trying to surrender. Sometimes it took a little time to get everyone to stop shooting. With expected results …

Read Martin Middlebrook's book "First Day on the Somme".

B

Thanks.

Armand

"War without hate" has always been a myth. A more accurate term would probably be "War with reduced hate". There are always going to be men caught up in the moment of battle. There are always going to be men with grudges. There are always going to be sadists.

I've read a fair amount on the N African campaign over the years and my take-away is the both British and German sources considered the Desert campaign to have been conducted in a comparatively gentlemanly manner.

B

The 'comparatively' doing a bit of fairly heavy lifting there, no doubt.

It's a complicated topic IMO. I'll take the inherited word of the participants. "Krieg ohne Hass" was not IMO simply invented as a propaganda ploy. We in the modern world of today seem to take a highly self-critical view of such things; many have no comprehension of the far worse excesses that transpired in previous ages.

YMMV, of course.

B

It's a very much underresearched area of the war.

link

All the best

Andreas

Thanks.

Armand

Thanks for the link, Andreas.
Interesting perspective.

B