"The Italian Wars, the conversion to Pike Blocks?" Topic

I know there is no hard and fast start date for the use of Pikes. I'm just looking for your opinion as to when both the Italians and French started using massed pike formations?

Thanks!

Italians were using pikes in the later part of the 15th century. French started replacing Francs Archers with pikemen early in the 16th century.

The most notable change for the French was the early 1530s when Francis 1 created the new bands. Which were primarily pike armed.

For Fornovo would you make any of the Italian Militia Pike or stick with the traditional Spears & Crossbows?

The French experimented with pikes in the early 1480s, to try and emulate the Swiss. Louis XI had a camp set up in Normandy and hired Swiss to train them there.

It's not clear if they ever were actually used beyond perhaps garrison duty, and were probably disbanded on the death of Louis XI in 1483.

FWIW, roughly contemporary pictures of Fornovo show Italians with shields and partizans.

Domenichi's translation of Benedetti describes the foot with
'scudi, haste, ballestri, alabarde, schioppi' so shields, spears, crossbows, halberds, guns.

There is a paper link which discusses the language used and 'hasta' isn't really precise enough to be sure of the spear used. My guess – going by various period illustrations – would be partizans and perhaps the same kind of pike/long spear shown being used from around the middle of the century, though the partizans could be counted under the alabarde.
The Germans later in the same army description have 'picche lunghe' which is more useful, but doesn't exclude the Italians from having some kind of pike.
Benedetti wrote in Latin – There is at least one later use of 'hasta' associated with Germans.

A 1506 print of the Battle of Fornovo 1495

Druzhina
Italian Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Thank you Swampster & Druzhina.

Afaik the use of pike spread in the French armies due to the success of the Swiss and especially the army of Burgund under Maximilian using the Swiss model at Guinegate after 1479. The following decade saw attempts to transfer the Swiss models to the local infantry by Maximilian (for Burgund), the French and Spain, with only Maximilian succeeding by using German infantry mixed with Swiss instructors, resulting in the Landsknechts. These would show up from 86 to 87 as independent infantry.
The French attempts to field pike in the Swiss style largely failed, though they may have fielded some from the 1490ies on. Whenever they could they used the French infantry in loose formation with crossbow and firearms and used Swiss or Landsknechts for the main battle. I am not aware of any French pike used in Italy before 1540, though that may be my deficit. The French contingents overrun in the first phase of Marignano may well have also some pikes in it, but they were not their defining weapons.

The Italians were pretty impressed with the Swiss units of the 1494 invasion and the Romagnol army of Cesare Borgia may be the first to field pike formation in the Swiss style. When Venetia took over that region, they also used them. You will find pikes in different qualities from 1500 onwards in Italian contingents. As the Italians were pretty prone to experimentation pike units may well have existed before, but as I am not really into the Condotta warfare I am not aware of them.

The Spanish started to use pikes after Seminara, first using Landsknechts at Cerignola, then slowly building up their own pike as part of the Colunella, ready to stand up to the French and later Landsknechts at Ravenna 1512. The cooperation between Spanish units and Imperials was pretty effective whenever it occured, as in la Motta, Bicocca and then Pavia (and later at the defense of Vienna).

BTW: You may find that it is hard to distinguish between Spanish and Imperial contingents on paintings for Pavia, and French units using pike would probably look alike with only beards and hair looking different.

If you find anything here is wrong please just tell me.

I thought that the French used Pikes from the Picardy region at several Italian Wars battles such as Ravenna. Again, let me know if I am wrong.

Btw, keep an eye out for this:
link

"I thought that the French used Pikes from the Picardy region at several Italian Wars battles such as Ravenna."

Some Picard foot are mentioned under Molart at Ravenna. Without going to the period sources, I don't know if they are described as being pikemen or assumed as being armed with pike (and other polearms). I don't think the proportions are mentioned – they may have been outnumbered considerably by the Gascons who are assumed to be crossbowmen.

There are the Picard bands – I don't think it has been established whether the Picard foot at Ravenna are part of these bands or aventurier type volunteers. The French wikipedia article link has a reasonable amount of detail on the service of the bands – they are mostly involved in actions against the Empire in Flanders, Burgundy etc. Whether they were truly maintained for the whole period also seems to be debated, though the French 1st Infantry Regt dates its founding to 1479 (via various named regiments).

There are a couple of TMP threads about the Picard bands.

"You may find that it is hard to distinguish between Spanish and Imperial contingents on paintings for Pavia, and French units using pike would probably look alike with only beards and hair looking different."

One of the Predonanzi et al. books reckons that the similarity between Imperial and Spanish troops is down to them being painted by Northern Europeans. Sometimes even the buildings are Northern rather than Italian. Whether the similarity is down to painting what is familiar or a deliberate visual binding of the Habsburg troops is another matter.
Spanish pictorial sources are less common but do show different styles of clothing.

There is a description of French infantry by a Frenchman (so any prejudice is down to class rather than nation!)
"They wear a long shirt with wide sleeves like the Bohemians and the Moors… They show their bare and hairy chest, and wear shoes of the most various. They wear colourful hose, slashed to the show thighs and even buttocks. Some infantrymen, cleaner, use taffeta profusely but even then show one or two bare legs and tie their hose to their belt."
And despite pictures tending to show them clean shaven…
"…they keep their hair long and bristly and have horrendous beards."

The 'cleaner' ones are perhaps those wearing clothes more like other Europeans (see the Aventuriers in link ) Figures like this are probably easier to get.
The Voyage de Genes link shows quite a lot of French infantry in a far more 'medieval' than 'renaissance' style. They are undoubtedly rather well armoured compared to reality but it gives an idea of how older styles were not swept away by the new fashions overnight.

maybe a stupid question but afaik the Flemish used pikemen from the 14th century onwards, the Burgundian armies used pikemen.
Why didn't the French on an earlier moment used pikemen?

It isn't a stupid question but it isn't one that could be easily or conclusively answered.
For a long time, pikes were known about and had shown their use at various battles at the start of the 14th century, but this did not spur on a revolution in their use across Europe.

The Burgundians raised at least some of their pike from their Flemish lands and it may be significant that the French pike have a connection with Picardy, neighbouring Flanders. The strong traditions of the militia helped to consolidate the use of pikes which may well go back even further than the 14th century (see for instance Bouvines in 1214 and perhaps _long_ before that).
The link to urban militia doesn't explain why Scotland and the free cantons of the North Sea coast also maintain a tradition of long spear use. Even in Switzerland, once they adopted the pike I think it was linked more to the countryside while the towns for some time were more associated with halberd use.
They do all have in common that their main enemies used knights as their main strength (at least to begin with). When places like France wanted to begin using pikes, it was a top-down imposition requiring the adoption of unfamiliar weaponry and to a large extent requiring regular training. This was a double issue as the compulsory training could be unpopular and if successful could result in a dangerous force within the kingdom.
What the French did do to some extent was to use infantry such as pavisiers – these would probably have been more useful against the English than pikemen. These were an offensive force, whereas the Italian use of pavise and long spearmen shielding crossbows was perhaps intended more defensively. This is a crude split though – quite a lot of Italian representations show the pavise bearers without crossbowmen in attendance – if anything the supporting troops have smaller shields and swords or javelins.

The Flemish use of pikes doesn't seem to have been in deep blocks at e.g. Courtrai but in a relatively shallow line. Spears long enough to be classed as pikes start showing up in Italy but they also don't seem to be used in blocks until the rapid expansion of pike use from the Burgundian Wars.

Some infantrymen, cleaner, use taffeta profusely but even then show one or two bare legs and tie their hose to their belt.

Druzhina
16th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Swampster, thanks for your answer

Why didn't the French on an earlier moment used pikemen?

Swampster already brough on most of the good stuff here, so I will just fill some corners.

What the Burgundian wars offered, and what was lacking before, is the demonstration that pikes could be a decisive offensive battlefield unit.

Their previous usage was mainly in specific cirumstances, effective mostly in defensive positions by infantry that had an additional cohesion then simply being lumped together. That was, imho, one of the problems of the Burgundian army – they never build up an "esprit de corps" and their infantry relied on a lot of theoretical integrated army-approach that needed a lot of trust in the others. If you organize your army as lance/glaive with different infantry weapons in the basic units its hard to achieve this trust to your comprades within a specific weapon class.

The Swiss had that confidence and trust. They also killed anybody that faltered, and were absolutely convinced of their ability to win any close combat. Just ss the "Silver Shields" of the late Alexandrian army they dominated each battle as much by confidence then by experience and skill.

In the Burgunidan wars they demonstrated this for all the world, and it is no coincidence that attempts to recreate this feat were made shortly after in Burgund (by Maximilian), France and Spain using Swiss instructors. While the "old bands" of France resulted from the process, sources are unclear how effective they were for the next two or three decades.
Spain then first went another way due to their type of warfare, but in Burgundian service under the Imperial heir the Germans and Swiss mixed well (for a time) and merging loyality to the Empire, mercenary ambitions, the Swiss martial and Burgundian administrative skills resulted in the tradition of the Landsknechts, showing up around 86 as usefull units and fighting as distinct units independently from Maximilian in Italy and England in 87.

This process was hard to recreate. It took examples – provided by the Swiss in practice and the classics on Alexanders phalanx – to try out pike armed formations beyond just using a long spear, and it took well drilled and especially confident men to make it work. The conditions before the Burgundian wars were simply not given, and even later on it was hard for states to create such a pool of soldiers from native recruits. Guiccardini describes the German, Swiss and Spanish as main battle infantry, while the other nations excel them in small warfare – except the Spanish, who were allrounders which, unsurprisingly, made them dominate the battlefields of Europe for a century.

One of the Predonanzi et al. books reckons that the similarity between Imperial and Spanish troops is down to them being painted by Northern Europeans. Sometimes even the buildings are Northern rather than Italian.

Thats true. Its hard to decide what is actual knowledge and what is simple transfer to cover gaps in that knowledge.

Overall the sources are rare, unless you search for Gensdarmes, Landsknechts or Swiss.

On the other hand you DO have depictions of French aventuriers that do look like they have just jumped out of the HYW, cleanly shaved, and descriptions that tell they use loose tunics and wild beards. We are trying to cover some 50 years of development in different units under different conditions. The picture Druzhina provided is a nice sample of a mixture of the style used in the voyage to Genua (eg. the breastplate) and Landsknechts influence like slashed clothings and the barret. No sign of long hair or wild beard, though, but I assume that may be due to petitioning the king, or the "wild" hair being a result of a campaigning style. The Swiss on the depictions of the first invasion of 1494 eg. have a decisively longer hairstyle then those depicted in the chronics for the Swabian wars just five years later. It may also be just the imagination of the artist.

I certainly do not buy the "Habsburg propaganda" argument that Predonanzi mentions in his book on Pavia – though I do have the impression he also distances himself a bit as he aligns this to a claim of "modern scholars".

All that said, I would love any reference to pike usage by French units – especially before 1530, or Italians outside the Romagnol units used by Papal and then Venetian armies that went down at Agnadello. Is there any description of how the 10000 Venetian infantry were armed and fighting at La Motta 1513?

As I am unable to read French, Spanish or Italian sources I sometimes feel a bit hampered in research :-/

You may find that it is hard to distinguish between Spanish and Imperial contingents on paintings for Pavia, and French units using pike would probably look alike with only beards and hair looking different.

'Conquest of Oran, 1509', painted by Juan de Borgoña, Toledo Cathedral, 1514.
Juan was born in the Duchy of Burgundy, but, this may give a closer idea of what Spanish troops in Spain looked like. Only minor amounts of slashing are shown.

Druzhina
Spanish Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

True, though my comment refers to the (several) depiction for Pavia, so the Spanish army in Italy some 20 years later.

Afaik the Oran-painting is the base for the splendid TAG-Miniature line for the Trastamara Spanish.

Interesting is the difference in the tapestry series for Pavia and the conquest of Tunis – in the latter it is quite easy to see the difference between Spanish and Imperial troops, while the difference is quite less visible for Pavia. Naturally there are 10 years between the commissions.

I think we have to remember we have the benefit of hindsight.
Even after the Burgundian wars, there was no guarantee that the pike block was going to be the dominant type of infantry.
The previous successes of pike in the Low Countries and Scotland had not led to their dominance – French and English armies each being able to beat their pike armed opponents fairly regularly.

If anything, the use of halberds and other polearms by the Swiss probably had a wider impact on armament through the 15th century.

Some may have looked at Charles the Bold's attempts to use artillery against the pike as being the right way, even if his tactics and other circumstances had let him down.
Maximillian chose to invest in the 'pike revolution', others took longer to be convinced. Delbruck gives an example of a Spanish nobleman who was ridiculed by his peers after trying to drill infantry in blocks.

Even once the pike became dominant, there was much discussion on how to beat it rather than copy it.

The militia which Macchiavelli had overseen under the Savaronola regime was armed with 70% pike, 20% with the ronca and other halberd-type weapons and 10% shot.

However, once he became an armchair politician, Machiavelli recommended a ratio of three sword and buckler men to two pikemen to one with shot. Within his 'legion' the ratio of swordsmen is even higher, but he has extra pike and shot as 'extraordinarii'. He presumably considered the previous militia to be ineffective, though there would have been economic, political and logistical barriers to getting his legion style reforms in place.

The Spanish increasingly developed their use of pike (along with shot) but put a lot of faith in the use of gunpowder – cannon and small arms – which is not so very different to Charles' combo of longbow, artillery and pike.
It was this fusion of ideas – including the pike block but not as reliant on it as the Swiss had been – which dominated European conflict for well over a century. Longer still if one sees the infantryman with bayonet and musket as being a combination of pike and shot.

The Florentine militia is another example of pike blocks being used elsewhere in Italy, even if the history of this militia is not exactly glorious. It does seem to have been organised to fight in the Swiss/Landsknecht style rather than being a continuation of however the Italians previously fought with pikes. They are seen quite often in 15th century sources, but often with pretty large shields as on the Battle of Anghiari link painting. In wargames terms, this would tend to put them in the 'long spear' rather than 'pike' category.