"Glenn Loury speech on blacks and America" Topic

PDF link

Powerful stuff.

"I have become convinced that the alienation that afflicts so many prosperous black Americans is the result of false narratives that folks are being told by demagogues and ideologues –narratives about how "white supremacy" threatens them; about how we have, in effect, reverted to the era of Jim Crow.

All of this gives the lie to the premise that the
American Dream does not apply to black people. To say so is to tell our children a lie about their country – a crippling lie which, when taken as gospel, robs black people of agency and a sense of control over our fate; a patronizing lie which betrays a profound lack of faith in the capacities of us black Americans to face-up to the responsibilities and to bear the burdens of our freedom

Mmmmm, not sure this is in the right place. But.

Take a look at many European based societies, especially those where the indigenous people are non-white. There is plenty of evidence of those indigenous people being treated differently right up to the end of the previous century.

It might be easy to say that people from non-European ethnic groups should harden up and tow the line, but that is not straight forward.

All of us are the product of our parents, grand parents and great grandparents. If they have suffered inequalities as a result of their ethnicity (and I'm thinking of two countries in particular, not USA) then how do their immediate descendants ignore that?

Mr Loury's writings are encouraging, but they come from his perspective only. And isn't that the problem to begin with?

I dont. I have gone from Negro to black to African American and back again. People can call themselves whatever they please, but not dictate what words I must use. And Lowry doesn't capitalize black. Maybe he didn't get the memo ether.

Philleu, sure, , but his perspective is particularly relevant just now.

There is something I find missing in this pull yourself up by your bootstraps exhortation.

The self evident truth that all men are created equal speaks for itself. The promise of America. The playing field needs to be leveled. Demographic data from many aspects of life shows that it is not.

We are created equal. Maybe not if you have to work harder than your neighbor to become his equal because of your skin color. Being born into a poverty stricken black family in a de facto segregated urban area with a drug economy is a tough start for reaching the American Dream.

Look at the data for racial groups, from mortality and health care to poverty and education, and a dozen other categories. Just coincidence? Their choice? Need to work harder? I thought I heard the echoes in this speech. Maybe I am missing the point, and I would never discourage hard work and commitment. But the data is always there. And you can't always work you way to equality. Even when we were all created equal.

"It's "Blacks", docmcb. With a capital B.
I also capitalize W in Whites."

Only because The New York Times style book says so, and they did it for political reasons. Last I heard a failing newspaper doesn't dictate how the English language is rendered.

Torterella, have a look at how black communities were doing between 1945 and 1965. All economic data was headed up. When the Johnson administration declared war on poverty things started heading in the other direction. The main culprit seems to be the destruction of the black family as a solid building block for children's future success. Compare it to the Vietnamese community which came here after the fall of South Vietnam. Very tight family units that started with nothing more than the clothes on their backs but they have done very well.

Dn Jackson s exactly right. LBJ's Great Society destroyed the black family in many cases.

You are right about the family. But it's demise has been across the board, as data indicates, regardless of race.

It is not easy to document exactly how government intervention in the poverty cycle destroyed the black family. Black families were routinely destroyed during the slavery years. Even after LBJ, upwardly mobile, hopeful blacks were discriminated against routinely in employment and housing aspirations, building block components of family life.

My personal experience is that Vietnamese who came here after the war were supported by my community, assisted with jobs and housing, worked hard and often developed successful businesses. But they also benefited from government assistance. Their families were not always intact because of the war, but they came from a society with a long history of family. And they were accepted.

I am realizing that this is another long, difficult conversation. In the making. The propensity to ascribe all of our problems to a single political party or individual does not work for me, but I am worn down by simplistic blamer culture. I saw black families eating moldy government cheese in the 80s, I don't blame Reagan. If it was that easy we could have fixed all of it by now.

Guys, this is another topic that is going to boil down to opinions only. No one is going to be completely right or completely wrong. It opens itself up to nothing but politics. It is a no win scenario.

Great phrase from 9/11 =====

"…just pull it"

Not sure of the point of the thread, or what it has to do with the ACW.

Tort, yes, and Lowry makes the point that income status is and has been more a factor than race. If we take illegitimacy as the measure, black families were far better off, in spite of racism, before 1965. Pre 1960 illegimacy was very low across the board, and black rate only a little higher than white.

Absolutely 35thOVI and 79thPA. Take it to a more relevant website. Or the blue fez (Blue Fez?)

"Illegitimate" doesn't really carry any implications at this point. People cohabitate, have children without marrying at increasing rates. The stigma has mostly disappeared.
There are many dysfunctional families that do as much harm as good. But I think it is mostly a great benefit and many issues can be traced to its decline.

Illegitimate means children, especially boys, growing up with at best one parent and less socialized. It is the root of a high % of crime and poverty. That we accept "baby daddies" is a measure of our depravity as a society.

Dogs are barking up and down the street with all these whistles going off.

Well, that word is almost never used this way today – illegitimate. Think about it. And Illegitimate never meant especially boys, to my knowledge.

I would argue that the root of poverty is more likely inequality, but we would extend this thread for days.

I might agree with you only a little re crime, but then we would be here for weeks.

We accepted many things, like slavery, which I would call a measure of our depravity. But then we have discussed this for years.

But I really like "all men are created equal". Created, not required to do certain things to earn equality. I think this works for everyone.

The fact that illegitimacy has become accepted with no shame attached is PRECISELY the problem. Are you familiar with Moynihan's idea of "defining deviancy down"?

link

In 1993, Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D., N.Y.) coined the phrase "defining deviancy down." Moynihan's thesis was that, as a society, America has been re-defining deviancy so as to exempt conduct previously stigmatized, and quietly raising the "normal" level for behavior that was abnormal by earlier standards.

Doc adds: the idea is that there is only a certain level of deviancy that a society can absorb. When the level greatly exceeds that and becomes destabilizing, we redefine deviancy so we can pretend everything is okay after all.

If this isn't politics, what is? Cease and desist, please.

There is nothing wrong with having a child while not married, leave the dark ages religion in the dark ages.

Calling it "deviancy" is offensive. I suspect you probably feel the same about homosexuals, given these views.

Well Bell, I've never thought right and wrong depend on what time it is.

Instead of objecting to the word Moynihan used, why not engage the idea he was expressing?

Anything that deviates from norms is deviancy. But norms can be redefined, which makes them quite different from right and wrong. It is difficult to think clearly if one's definitions are unclear. Our society is now considerably invested in redefining norms. But the Gods of the Copybook Headings will not be far behind.

But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

And oh yeah, that "dark age religion" is what got us OUT of the first Dark Ages.

@doc

This is a conservatives prize given for conservative viewpoints. While I dont have an issue with that and it is a very good prize, I can hardly see what Prof Loury's talk has to do with a broader based social problem which exists outside of his opinion. Whomever is to blame for discrimination, and it has complexities, it isnt an illusion. The very fact that Prof Loury believes things have gotten better for Blacks must suggest that they are emerging from a place when it was worse.

Further, I dont see what this has to do with the ACW? Why do we feel the need to discuss whether people of color are discriminated against or suffering from a politically crafted delusion? Is this some tangential support for Mr. 35thOVI's theory that White supremacy doesnt exist?

I note that the great Wilfred McClay also won a Bradley prize this year.

Au Pas, anyone can go back to that particular thread in ACW and read that I NEVER said white supremacy does not exist. I have said and will repeat saying, it exits today, but it is in no greater proportion than any other races. It is a false premise being blown totally out of proportions by one party and their pet media, to garner and hold on to votes. I was really trying to stay out of this thread. I prefer staying out of it, as my only other post here says. Please stop fabricating things I DID NOT say.

See Thomas Sowell for analysis of the social history of black families in the post-ACW period.

Speaking from personal eye-witness experience, anyone curious about the reasons behind the collapse of the black family structure should study the great migration (relocation) of poor rural black families from the deep south to northern cities starting in the early 1960's and their experience as wards of the new federal welfare bureaucracy. Pay particular attention to the Federal AFDC Program (AFDC = Aid to Families with Dependent Children).

B

@35thOVI

Oh, c'mon, you stated several times that white supremacy isnt a "thing":

Now do I bring these up because I believe all blacks are racist? No. Just like I believe very few whites are white supremists. White Supremacy is the great Bogeyman of the left. Hence the reason I fight it whenever some authors or individuals start writing or shouting about it effecting all we do, act and think in our everyday and individual lives.

Your belief that everyone engages in racial supremacy equally is an across-the-board neutralizing stance.

Also, you do seem to often have a viewpoint that no one can understand you or that others are putting words in your mouth. Further, you do give the impression you want to assert opinions and then say that you are not asserting those opinions. Additionally, I've seen that odd you-are-putting-words-in-my-mouth approach here before and it is usually from people who can't express themselves well. In fact, it is a clever conservative debating trick to use euphemisms to express an unpopular idea and then claim they didnt say what the audience concludes they are "really" saying. It is badly deployed by some members on here; probably because they are just aping what conservative intelligentsia use with aplomb without deeply understanding the tactic.

In any case, perhaps this is an opportunity to take the time to set down your opinions more clearly to avoid confusion on the part of your poor readers. You make some broad strokes and I could overlook your endless subsequent nuancing of your meanings except that it seems to be a one way street. Certainly, you seem to think you are free to interpret what others say and continually dig into the nuances of what they assert and thus it might be a lesson in allowing people to draw conclusions about what you assert.

For an example, see my answer about the SS v Confederate treatment of Blacks on the Ty Seidule Lost Cause Myths thread.

Au Pas, Do you even read what you write? The quote of mine you used here, specifically says what I stated. There are white supremists, but they are few in numbers. There are black supremists, but they are few in number. I am sure there are red and yellow supremists. But numbers are minor.

The white supremists of today, is blown way out of proportion by the left to engender votes and fear. The only way they can retain any power. Opps, forgot bread and circuses.

You Continuously misquote, it does seem to be a habit. Anyone interested in the full context of the conversations (I use that word very Loosely) is welcome to read that thread he mentions.

Honestly AU Pas, I don't think I could ever understand how you think, since you ask.

I am glad you finally admitted that you are on the left. Was that so hard? I have admitted my viewpoint before. I am at least proud of mine.

Notice you brought me into this thread. I did not bring your name up. I stated before, I am that burr in your saddle. That itch you can't get rid of. I am the Kirk to your Kahn. Because I won't stop like so many others do with you.

35thOVI,
As in the film "Monte Python and the Holy Grail", you are clearly dueling with an analog of the fight in the forest glen versus "The Black Knight".

Great fun in following the exchange.

B

You Continuously misquote, it does seem to be a habit. Anyone interested in the full context of the conversations (I use that word very Loosely) is welcome to read that thread he mentions.

I did not misquote you, that is a complete quote. It is not even out of context.

Not only do you misquote me and get the context inside out but youve purposefully misquoted yourself. Surely the height of confusion and perhaps dishonesty.

Au Pas, Do you even read what you write? The quote of mine you used here, specifically says what I stated. There are white supremists, but they are few in numbers. There are black supremists, but they are few in number. I am sure there are red and yellow supremists. But numbers are minor.

Perhaps, like some tragically ill starred poet, no one will ever really understand you. You say there are white supremacists but they are few in numbers and the same number as every other races' supremacist members?

It seems like Prof Loury is saying that there is no white supremacy and no institutional racism in America. I was asking doc if he was starting this thread in sympathy with your claim that there is no white supremacy. Or is it, that there is white supremacy but it's really, really, really, really, really small and everyone else has supremacists.

Is that right? No? Maybe I still can't understand you?

Oh cruel world, that an artist like yourself has no one to appreciate their prose.

I am glad you finally admitted that you are on the left. Was that so hard? I have admitted my viewpoint before. I am at least proud of mine.

I admitted that I am on the Left? Aside from the fact that I dont follow that claim, why are you looking for sides?

You make some absolutely outrageous outbursts.

Notice you brought me into this thread. I did not bring your name up. I stated before, I am that burr in your saddle. That itch you can't get rid of. I am the Kirk to your Kahn. Because I won't stop like so many others do with you.

A little paranoid there. I brought you up as a very side issue about why doc brought up this OP. I'm not responsible for your behavior; you can get in, you can get out, your choice. You dont think I could make that connection?

The Kirk to my Kahn? I'm sorry, stop? Do you feel that it is your right to broadcast controversial opinions and then walk away if people dont adopt them without question? Perhaps you deserve a medal for continuing to interact with me?

I do see you are trying to antagonize me probably because you are panicking from an inability to get your arguments straight or go toe to toe. Personally, I find it amusing.

Who "stops" with me? Even if they do, you think that's an indication of strength on their part?

Honestly AU Pas, I don't think I could ever understand how you think, since you ask.

HAHAHA, oh thank you for saying that. We are indeed VERY different.

@Blutarki

35thOVI,
As in the film "Monte Python and the Holy Grail", you are clearly dueling with an analog of the fight in the forest glen versus "The Black Knight".

Great fun in following the exchange.

B

Are you one of the guys who've "stopped" discussing with me? I suppose I should be happy that you think that 35thOVI is making sense here because it tends to reinforce that I'm a voice you worry about to the point where you support dysfunctional viewpoints. But why waste time on with me, surely you should be working on your book on the secret but obvious causes of the Civil War?

"Tis but a scratch!"

Au Pas. Simple questions.

Do YOU believe white supremacy is rampant in the United States?

Is it the greatest threat (domestic terrorism) as has been expressed by many of those currently in power, that we in the United States face?

Is the United States in the top 10 of the most racist countries in the world today?

Simple questions, from someone you believe is simple minded.

FYI Blutarski, you are correct. But he's not quite dead yet, it's just a flesh wound. 😉

Yeah, I don't have to read it; yeah, free speak, etc, etc…

I just find it disappointing that this type of thing is cluttering up an otherwise great gaming site.

The demand for white supremacy far exceeds the supply. The left is desperate for it to exist so they can define themselves against it.

Charge, yes, I was aware that Bill McClay was getting the award. His speech also is excellent, well worth watching.

Young Readers Edition of LAND OF HOPE is out July 4. It is a great read, marvelously written, and will be enjoyed by adults as well as middle schoolers.

Doc, thank you.

The demand for white supremacy far exceeds the supply. The left is desperate for it to exist so they can define themselves against it.

Charge, yes, I was aware that Bill McClay was getting the award. His speech also is excellent, well worth watching.

I thought this was created as a sort of outgrowth of 35thOVI's view on white supremacy.

I think it's a problem but agree that certain lobbies are using it politically.

I did watch McClay's acceptance speech, it was quite positive.

Charge, you will enjoy the YRE of LOH very much, I believe. We are working on curricular support for it now, though it will be next year before it is ready.

doc,

I look forward to it.

More detail on the Federal AFDC program of the 60's. Families coming from the South and unable to find employment were able to apply for federal welfare under the AFDC program.

The way the regulations were written, husband and wife could file independently for welfare support (essentially doubling the federal payout, IIRC). However, in order to qualify, the husband and wife could not be living in the same location; each had to have their own home or apartment. Federal social workers would make frequent unscheduled inspections to ensure that no cohabitation was taking place.

The inevitable result was children raised without a father at home and marriages destroyed – Brilliant social engineering policy from Washington DC.

Shortly later came the federally imposed forced busing mandate, which destroyed the previously successful neighborhood school system in Boston and inflamed racial rancor throughout the city – More brilliant social engineering policy from Washington DC.

I could fill several pages with more consequences of this sort of social tragedy.

B

All of this is documented in LOSING GROUND.

link

And none of it relates to miniatures or Wargames. Put up on a Friday evening to avoid the editor?
There must be places for discussions like this. TMP isn't that place.

Doc,
I'd very much enjoy the opportunity to correspond/chat with you on this topic in more depth. But "advocate's" post above is fair comment; any such conversation is probably best taken off-site.

You can reach me at -
byronangel [at] verizon [dot] net

No problem at all if you choose to take a pass on this proposal.

B

Blut, email sent.

Well said, advocate. Thank you.

Blutarski, sent you an email. Doc could you contact me on TMP?

35th, you can email me

docmcbride@comcast.net