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"Rand Paul Says "Ukraine was part of Russia"" Topic


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emckinney26 Apr 2022 10:47 p.m. PST

link

Paul then said if Ukraine had been part of NATO when Russia invaded then "US soldiers would be fighting in Ukraine" right now.

"If you look at the countries that Russia has attacked over the last years…these were countries that were not part of NATO. It has not attacked NATO countries," the top US diplomat said.

"You could also argue the countries they've attacked were part of Russia…part of the Soviet Union," Paul responded.

"That does not give Russia the right to attack them," Blinken said.

[Sen. Paul says that the Biden administration was being too strong on Ukraine, which caused Putim to invade.]

Heedless Horseman26 Apr 2022 11:18 p.m. PST

Who the Hell is Rand Paul?
Ukraine WAS part of Russia WW2 . NOT now.
USA still got Guantanemo??

Umpapa27 Apr 2022 1:14 a.m. PST

So was Alaska.

Self-determination, rings a bell?

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP27 Apr 2022 1:17 a.m. PST

Ukraina was never part of Russia. It was part of Czar's Empire and Soviet Union, but not part of Russia. Actually there are no such land like Russia at all.
There was Rossia, with habitants who belongs to their foreign conquerers – Russians. After Revolution Russians left the country and Stalin renames the conquered velikorosses to Russians.
Even now there are no Russia but Rossian Federation. And Ukraina was never part of Rossian Federation.

Arjuna27 Apr 2022 1:32 a.m. PST

Yes, but…

whatabout…

…Texas?

And…

…is Mariupol Ukraine's Alamo???

ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa27 Apr 2022 3:29 a.m. PST

Just a minute he's on record as suggesting NATO put more missile defense systems in Poland and Czech Republic which we know is an issue that very much 'pokes the bear'.

Also really doesn't get self-determination which seems a bit odd since he self-identifies as a libertarian.

Heedless Horseman27 Apr 2022 3:57 a.m. PST

Ok WW2 'Ostfront' was against Ukraine as well as Russians… within USSR. Not much difference, then.
NOW… independent Nation. Same peoples. That's why 'Russians' aren't doing too well. Up against some of the 'hardest' of the Hard.

Achtung Minen27 Apr 2022 5:42 a.m. PST

Poland was part of the German Empire! What's the worst that could happen?

Arjuna27 Apr 2022 5:52 a.m. PST

> Poland was part of the German Empire! What's the worst that could happen?

Germany would have a secure gas supply from Norway via the Baltic pipeline!

:)

SBminisguy27 Apr 2022 7:17 a.m. PST

The article spins Rand Paul out of context.

Go watch the exchange between Paul and Blinken. Blinken is babbling about NATO expansion being a deterrent, and that the reason Ukraine is being attacked, like Georgia had been attacked, was because they weren't part of NATO.

Paul's rejoinder was that Blinken's statement is irrelevant, you can also say that all the countries attacked were also formerly part of the USSR, and agrees that regardless, nothing justified Russia's invasion.

Then Blinken babbles on about how they tried to engage Russia on NATO expansion….never mind that the Deleted by Moderator has spent the last 4 years non-stop demonizing and attacking Russia and Putin. And then Blinken proceeds to contradict his statement of just a minute before about NATO, saying that Putin has a vision of Empire that motivated the invasion of Ukraine that is separate from NATO expansion.

Which is it…NATO would have deterred Putin, or not deterred Putin?

And lets also look at Blinken's track record, eh?

*The disastrous Libyan War which led to instability, civil war and mass refugee migrations
*The Iran Nuke deal
*Non-response to the Russian invasion of Georgia
*Failure to detect or deter Russia's annexation of Crimea
*Failure to detect or deter Russia's invasion of Eastern Ukraine
*Helped draft the US' Syria policy and helped lead efforts to combat ISIS…which led to instability, civil war, the rise of the ISIS Caliphate and mass refugee migrations

Why do we want to listen to this man on *anything*??

Anyways, go watch the testimony instead of reading one biased article and accepting its premise.

Andrew Walters27 Apr 2022 9:14 a.m. PST

Lots of places used to belong to someone else. UTAH used to be part of Mexico. If that justifies war then anyone can attack any neighbor at any time. That just can't be relevant.

link

Also, Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons in exchange for an explicit promise from Russia not to invade. That was less than thirty years ago. That means everyone needs nukes and needs to keep them. That's the end of non-proliferation right there.

0ldYeller27 Apr 2022 10:13 a.m. PST

SBminisguy – agreed one should look at the whole exchange not just read the article. People should do a little investigation of The Insider – a publication that has an overarching political stance and bias. Agree Blinken is unqualified for his job but some of Paul's statements could be interpreted as "we made Putin invade Ukraine". Just like the old spousal abuse defence "you made me hit you". This was not one of Paul's more cogent arguments and his "history" could use a some work. Perhaps he should stick to his pursuit of the PRCs role in the Covid pandemic.

SBminisguy27 Apr 2022 10:45 a.m. PST

Agree Blinken is unqualified for his job but some of Paul's statements could be interpreted as "we made Putin invade Ukraine".

I guess, but that's not how I interpreted it. Blinken made the false argument that Georgia and Ukraine were invaded because they weren't in NATO, Paul countered that you could just as well say they were invaded because they had been part of the USSR. He was countering an absurd argument with an absurd argument to point out the absurdity of Blinken's point. Paul also went on to say that Russia had no right to attack them regardless.

The Business Insider article clearly was crafted to defend Blinken's contradictory statements and try and attack Paul, and they even brought the discredited Vindman as an "expert" on the issue.

14Bore27 Apr 2022 11:48 a.m. PST

In my Russian army it is

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian27 Apr 2022 12:43 p.m. PST

Posts discussing what Rand Paul said are germane to this discussion, but comments about his politics are against forum rules.

Gray Bear27 Apr 2022 1:02 p.m. PST

+1 SBminisguy

Personal logo Herkybird Supporting Member of TMP27 Apr 2022 3:36 p.m. PST

Suffice to say Ukrainian independence was guaranteed post Soviet empire collapse by the Budapest Memorandum in 1994 if it gave up its Nuclear Arsenal by the USA, UK … and Russia.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP27 Apr 2022 4:31 p.m. PST

Blinken is portrayed as an unqualified babbler here.I will reply that Paul is also an unqualified babbler in this case. Blinken's whole career is listed as a failure. I believe the same can be said for Paul in the Senate. Watching these two converse on this topic is misleading and scary, IMO, great examples of the depth of the leadership crisis we have been living through for some time. More examples from these two that no end is in sight. .

dapeters28 Apr 2022 1:14 p.m. PST

But Bill his politics is what lies behind what he says.

Legion 428 Apr 2022 2:22 p.m. PST

Blinken is portrayed as an unqualified babbler here.
I agree with that appraisal. E.g. He and others said they were surprised the Taliban were removing woman from Gov't positions as they took over. Clearly those that were surprised don't really get how fundamentalist radical fanatical islamists think, operate, etc. E.g. the Taliban, AQ, ISIS, etc. Those women were lucky not to be taken out back and shot. AFAIK they may have.

Plus, our top leadership, to even think/believe at any level to go back into the Iran Nuke deal. Allowing the Russians to be the 3d party in these negotiations. And using the idea that the US would take the IRGC of the terrorists as a carrot. Again clearly don't know what is going on.

So no … I'm not a fan of many in charge …

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP28 Apr 2022 2:28 p.m. PST

Paul once said that the founders never intended for Americans to trust their government. While I don't really believe this, I do not find him informative, nor Blinken. Pure politics. I do not think these people are the best sources for info you can use to figure out what is going on in Ukraine.

gunnerphil29 Apr 2022 8:37 a.m. PST

So if using history as a guide as to what country belong who which country, does that mean America belongs to Italy?

America was once part of British Empire, long before that British was part of Roman Empire. So does Rome have a claim?


How far back can you go?

oldnorthstate29 Apr 2022 8:43 a.m. PST

Whether you like it or not the fact is that the "Ukraine" has always been part of another, larger entity since the demise of the Russ. First it was the Lithuanians then the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Russia. In between transitions they were semi independent but could never sustain that independence.

dapeters29 Apr 2022 12:22 p.m. PST

Paul will say whatever his backers tell him. The French Canadians had an opportunity to leave Canada they choose not to. Same with the Scots. Ukrainian have not had that choice and took it.

Legion 429 Apr 2022 5:44 p.m. PST

I do not think these people are the best sources for info you can use to figure out what is going on in Ukraine.
Or anywhere else it seems …

SBminisguy29 Apr 2022 10:19 p.m. PST

Paul will say whatever his backers tell him.

…or you could just watch the back and forth between Paul and Blinken and decide for yourself, eh?

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP29 Apr 2022 11:05 p.m. PST

Not without my medication, My doctor tells me that listening to Senators on committees is not good for my health. And Blinken is also a classic. They both give me heart babbltations.

SBminisguy01 May 2022 8:41 a.m. PST

My doctor tells me that listening to Senators on committees is not good for my health.

ROFLMAO!

Legion 401 May 2022 9:10 a.m. PST

👍👍 There also seems to be too many "activists" in Congress. That really are not doing their jobs as members of Congress. But they got elected … so …

dapeters16 May 2022 12:16 p.m. PST
Heedless Horseman16 May 2022 1:14 p.m. PST

Now, this is all Political…so should not really be on here. But Trump was a ' Mover and Shaker' … with some Crazy policies. Did not 'like' him…. but..
Biden is 'just a face' elected to counter Trump. In my opinion, useless… and losing his marbles.
In UK… I will back Boris… not ideal… but TRIES to do things… and just a little bit 'unpredictable'.
PUTIN… MAD DOG… and we need a level of 'uncertainty' to contain… re. Thatcher and Regan.
SE Asia… same things apply.
If you do not keep on getting 'comitted'opponent 'on wrong foot'… you will get hit.

SBminisguy16 May 2022 2:40 p.m. PST

@dapeters, so Rand Paul is Putin's Puppet because he questions the value to US national security of getting more entangled in a war with a nuclear power led by an unstable despot?

Certainly its in the US' interest to help Ukraine fend off Russia, and further break the back of the Russian military involved in the invasion. But Rand Paul is Putin's Puppet for daring question the utility of throwing tens of billions of aid dollars with few controls or oversight at a country which in the past has been used to launder massive political payoffs??

Or the overall value of "fast track" tens of billions in new weapons contracts to defense contractors during a time deep economic pain? Paul has also dared ask questions like -- why was US Border Patrol ordered to pull agents off the US southern border to go to Poland to help process refugees?

Why is Ukrainian border security sacrosanct and "worth any price" according to one leading politician, but not US border security -- the lack of which has helped lead to an explosion of crime, drugs and dysfunction in the country, and some 100,000 US deaths by fentanyl overdose?

I also have yet to hear any spokesperson in the Biden Admin act like an adult and provide any policy goals more in depth than "we're in it to win it."

What does "it" look like? Is it the restoration of pre-war borders? Is it total restoration of Ukrainian territory, including Crimea and the Donbas region? Is it the death or surrender and trial of Putin (who controls nukes, yes??).

How do we get to "it"?

******************

@Heedless Horseman

PUTIN… MAD DOG… and we need a level of 'uncertainty' to contain… re. Thatcher and Regan.

Nope. Reagan and Thatcher provided CERTAINTY, not uncertainty. They did not announce "red lines" they were not willing to enforce, and did not make idle threats. The Russians knew if they crossed a certain line, it would lead to certain consequences. That's also what Trump did -- he never made idle threats, and followed through on the ones he did.

It is UNCERTAINTY that leads to war. Uncertainty about French and British resolve resulted in WW2. Uncertainty about the US' interest in Korea led to the Korean War. Uncertainty about a US response to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait led to the Gulf War. And uncertainty about US resolve because of prior Biden/Obama inaction when Russia in invaded Georgia, and Ukraine twice before -- coupled with the Biden fiasco in Afghanistan, led to uncertainty about a US response to a general invasion of Ukraine. Or more likely, a high level of certainty that the US would basically do nothing.

Uesugi Kenshin Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2022 3:31 p.m. PST

This thread is spiraling out of control like a downed Russian SU-34…

Let's just all agree that Rand Paul is a National Tool and leave it at that.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2022 3:37 p.m. PST

I do not think Rand Paul is Putin's puppet. He is just kind of there, talking a lot, another rich guy in a dysfunctional government body getting our attention.

Reagan did provide certainty but his challenges, and he met them well, did not rise to the post 9/11 level of internal and external threats we face. Same for Trump. Trump's certainty lay in his uncertainty. Never stopped talking and tweeting, vague, ego driven bluster, threw foreign leaders off balance and kept everyone guessing. No one knew what to make of it except maybe Putin. But no one called him on it either, just in case. The uncertainty was his strength.

Now we have much more on our plate, both danger and opportunity. Uncertainty about leadership. The pandemic and Putin are historic milestones, and the impact is game changing. Russia may collapse, China does not look like it will be doing well. North Korea's supply chain is hurt by the changes in Russia and China, and they may all have Covid there. The Middle East is never safe. Ever. The West has re-united, but faces issues.

War and pestilence. Fundamental change. Uncertainty is the right word. Use it. We are way too certain about who to blame. Politics is killing us. There will be leaders again someday, not soon, but someday, I believe.

In the meantime could it be that our glass may be at least half full?

dapeters17 May 2022 12:40 p.m. PST

Paul is a product of citizens united. As for Regan if he was still around today he be called a Rino.

SBminisguy25 May 2022 10:54 a.m. PST

Let's just all agree that Rand Paul is a National Tool and leave it at that.

Nah, I'll be contrarian -- we absolutely need voices like Rand Paul questioning this rush to war against a nuclear power. And the rush to let go massive aid packages with little oversight to a country that in the past has been used to launder foreign aid back to US and Western politicians and companies.

And ya know what? You can say that while also hoping that Ukraine wins, and agree that Putin's a b$^&*(! who launched an unjust and illegal war.

If you're going to spend $40 USD Billion, you should have strict controls over where it goes. This $40 USD Billion?

US Defense Spending: $14.9 USD Billion

*$3.9 billion to sustain U.S. forces deployed to Europe
*$9 billion to replenish U.S. weapons stocks already sent to Ukraine.
*$2 billion for long-term support to NATO allies and DOD modernization programs

Ukrainian Security Spending: $10 USD Billion
* $6 USD billion for training, equipment, weapons, logistic support, supplies and services, salaries and stipends and intelligence support to the military and national security forces of Ukraine (and the specifics of the expenditures remain to be determined and much could be in the form of contracts let to US military contractors like Blackwater)
*$4 billion for the Foreign Military Financing Program (this allows a foreign country like Ukraine to buy brand new weapon systems).

Economic Assistance: $16 USD Billion
*$16 billion for economic support to Ukraine and global humanitarian relief (and the specifics of the expenditures remain to be determined)

So a large chunk of the Ukrainian aid bill is actually US defense spending on itself, and much of the rest isn't structured with strict oversight…so who knows where that money will actually go?

StillSenneffe25 May 2022 2:28 p.m. PST

Perhaps rand is forgetting that the modern USA was once part of the British empire- but that changed.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP25 May 2022 3:15 p.m. PST

Paul has no trouble slipping through amendments to support added heavy spending on Kentucky military bases. Since the waste estimate for our 700 million dollar defense budget is perhaps four times as much as the money going to Ukraine, how about some oversight in Kentucky? It's a major part of the economy there I believe, with Kentucky getting about 4 times as much aid from the feds as it pays in taxes. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

I think 40 billion is a bargain from the point of view that Russia is being exposed and embarrassed militarily in Ukraine. They will not recover easily from this mess.

SBminisguy25 May 2022 6:08 p.m. PST

I think 40 billion is a bargain…

Sure, why not -- say, did ya know that we could add a Kevlar "shelter in place" sheet and install anti-intruder security bars + bullet proof kevlar door inserts in every classroom in America for about $2 USD Billion? Meh, better spent on non-transparent foreign aid, I say!

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP25 May 2022 8:46 p.m. PST

I did not know that but it seems unlikely given the number of classrooms. The 350,000,000 guns in circulation will keep growing in any case. I don't know the answer, but I am not looking to the government or the media.

In the meanwhile, if you find anything transparent in the Senate, let me know.

SBminisguy26 May 2022 12:08 p.m. PST

I did not know that but it seems unlikely given the number of classrooms.

Basic math. Here's a rough breakdown:
*75,000,000 K-12 students / x30 kids per classroom (national average) = 2,500,000 classrooms

*$500/classroom for basic security: $100 USD for the door bar, $100 USD for the kevlar door panel, $300 USD for the Kevlar safety sheet

2,500,000 classrooms x $500 USD/classroom = ~$1.26 Billion.

Then I added 50%, 'cause government. But go ahead and double or triple that, and we're still talking just 5%-10% of the cost of the Ukraine aid bill, and every classroom in America could have passive shooter protection installed.

Then it costs about $1 USD Billion to construct a 1000-bed mental health care facility so you can, you know, treat and warehouse crazy people before they become shooters. So that aid package could cover the cost of passive protection for every classroom in America and 38,000 mental healthcare beds.

Oh well. The old Guns or Butter debate.

dapeters26 May 2022 12:53 p.m. PST

SB did not now that your were pro social spending! Cheers but there are much cheaper solutions to that particular problem.

SBminisguy26 May 2022 3:08 p.m. PST

SB did not now that your were pro social spending! Cheers but there are much cheaper solutions to that particular problem.

Social spending does not equal Socialism.

The core problem is mental health. My Dad's high school had a shooting club, with rifles stored on the campus. No kid ever shot another kid. So there have been fundamental changes in society that include a degradation of mental health. Check the stats -- the rise in anti-depressant drug use to correct childhood behavior matches the rise in shootings. Just like the core problem to solve for the homeless issue is mental health.

Btw -- for a deadly comparison, not to minimize this awful event:

1. School shootings: Since 1999 in the US there have been x14 mass school shootings that killed 169 people an average of 7 deaths a year.


2. Big City violence: In Chicago alone in 2021, there were 3,561 shooting incidents that resulted in 797 gun deaths and another 1,500 wounded. So the violence in Chicago saw almost FIVE TIMES as many gun deaths in ONE YEAR than in the last 23 years of school shootings.

Anyone up in arms about that? Doesn't seem that way…anyways, I've hijacked this thread enough.

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP26 May 2022 3:48 p.m. PST

Cheaper… Yes, just like with the F-35 program! Or the $7,600 USD coffee maker. Maybe we should follow the Defense Department's budget management system on this. We are all pro military spending, and it works so well.

I am not sure I would trust a $100 USD Kevlar door panel. I saw them changing door panels and bars in CT after Sandy Hook, it cost way more than that. And no Kevlar.

In any case, I agree with, "who knows where that money will go?" I would prefer someone other than conflicted politicians to find out.

Heedless Horseman26 May 2022 5:06 p.m. PST

UK criminals can get guns…but other people can't.
In some cases… may not be bad…terrorists with a knife can be taken down with a Narwal Horn… But I believe WE should be able to own handguns. Just, maybe not Automatic Combat Rifles!

Tortorella Supporting Member of TMP26 May 2022 5:43 p.m. PST

SB, it's on everyone's mind, hard to not think about. Most of the Chicago shootings are street, thugs on thugs, there are police and bystander casualties, as you would expect in this level of shooting.
Schools are different. There may be some findings on the response that will be instructive. That has to be enough here on this…

I am hoping the Ukrainians can stall the Russians with all the assistance they are getting and there is a settlement. But who would trust Putin?

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