"The old world" Topic
168 Posts
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The H Man | 07 Apr 2022 4:52 p.m. PST |
Any goss'? I'm suspecting there won't be any metal, which is disappointing. Also probably overloaded with BIG things with sticky out bits like their other two main games. And there's a question, will this be a new main game, one to take over from AOS, or just a sub game? Hope it's not limited edition/time. I do suspect a reason for them taking forever since first mentioning it. They are probably trying to keep potential buyers from buying fantasy elsewhere, so are using a trail of bread crumbs. It could also mean they were just reacting to others with nothing planned at all and are playing catch up. The folly is that now other comps know what they are up to and have plenty of time to plan their counter attack, especially for those with pre existing mass fantasy games. Honestly I can't see how AOS and TOW could coexist, especially with LOTR already in the space. Unless…. Is LOTR to be dropped???? Was it even the reason for AOS??? If FB wasn't doing so well, and GW had LOTR to fill the space with popularity in spades and changed to a more computer gamey AOS with a scale push. Now with the new show coming out, maybe the LOTR licence is to end? So bring in TOW to fill the gap, a game (we assume) people have been wanting with existing miniatures still in production/stock. Just some thoughts. |
Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 07 Apr 2022 10:51 p.m. PST |
I imagine it will be the same as 40K and the Horus Hersey currently work. I'm thinking AoS will continue to be the main game while Old World will get a box set every few years plus some over priced Forge world stuff. Not really and an issue for me I'm and Oldhammer type of guy my Old world is stuck in 2nd/3rd edition WFB. |
The H Man | 08 Apr 2022 2:33 a.m. PST |
I don't know, don't 30/40 have cross over figures? AOS/TOW can't, unless they put in extra bases. Also 30/40 squad would maybe have 20 figs, most FB regiments are starting at that. Basically a mass battle game needs more figures, shelf space, so on. I'm guessing they will do regiment boxes that can be made into several different types, more than previous. So not just swords and spears, but bows and heavies. Possibly a sprue that has maybe 4 light bodies, 2 heavy bodies, a cavalry, a cannon, a troll size, a character, a swarm. You get say 5 in a box, allowing 20 light, 10 heavy, 5 cavalry, 5 swarms and more than enough of the others. Then you just buy multiple of the same box. Perhaps characters use the heavy body, maybe it's half a cannon on each sprue, so on. Something like that. Less moulds, more casts=bigger profits and less shelf space. Plus 30/40 rules are similar, I assume, there is no way TOW will be similar to AOS, if they want it to sell. Also, this is yet another game, main or not. Their shops aren't big enough. Something has to give. Maybe we won't be seeing all the armies armies time soon, remember FB was their flagship game. I just have this uneasy feeling it's all going to be stained by their modern CG spiky plastic figure style. It would be great to at least see metal characters and special units. Then again, it would have been great if they didn't can FB in the first place! |
QUATERMASS | 08 Apr 2022 2:34 a.m. PST |
I haven't got much if any time or anyting good to say about their business Model but GW's old world I have to say is a brilliant IP in my opinion,but is not enough of a worm for me to bite! Just don't like being ripped off is all. |
GreenMountainBoy | 08 Apr 2022 6:14 a.m. PST |
I do love the IP of the old world, and have been collecting Oldhammer figures to rebuild my collection over these past few years of COVID. Been following GW's approach to reviving TOW with some interest, but I've been surprised at how limited the drip-drip-drip of information has been. While I am interested, I doubt any new models will carry the same old-school aesthetic that I have come to love. I'm collecting them purely for nostalgia's sake. We'll see. |
Legend of Doom | 09 Apr 2022 10:07 a.m. PST |
They are drawing this out and I wonder if they will lose interest and quietly let this pass. Which is a shame as I like the Kislev designs they've piblished. However, how much interest is there in this ? WFB was a declining product and killing off the world 7 years ago hardly endeared much in the way of good will. There were some WFB hold outs but most of them have migrated to 9th age which has better balanced ( if less interesting) army lists and tighter rules than GW seem able to draft. Then of course there are those who have converted to Kings of War or Oathmark and may not wish to invest in WFb especially given the way GW treated WFB. It would be like getting back together with a cheating ex who rinsed you for your money |
The H Man | 09 Apr 2022 5:20 p.m. PST |
The other problem they have is when is it set, real time wise? Is it a modern computer gamey take, like AOS? Will they go back to its roots with an 70-80s style? Or make it look realistic like so many CGI hard to paint accuracy proportional figures? For me it would be best to see metal characters and specials. Maybe metal troops as an option. Then plastic troop boxes. I love the simplicity of the 80-90s single piece duplicate figures, a nod towards both toy soldiers and traditional wargaming. But the regiment boxes offered more options, albeit multi part frustration. So probably single piece figures, but with seperate weapons for more options, like the Space Crusade marines. That would be my ideal set up. I think the early 90s had it right, like most things. On the other hand simple recasts of the earlier figures would be nice. |
Legend of Doom | 10 Apr 2022 6:36 a.m. PST |
Its all speculative at present- the smart money is that it is unlikely that GW will go back to metal sculpts. Looking through the online catalogue and much of the old world ranges ( particulary Brettonia and Tombs Kings) have dissapeared while some of the Empire, Dwarf and Elf ranges have survived. Warhammer Total War have introduced units into the game which did not exist in WFB e.g units of Brettonians on Hippo Gryphs, Empire war wagons ( though this did exits waay back in the day) while the recent game launched Cathay and Kislev. It has been claimed on the GW website that Kislev and Cathay were developed by GW and rules were conceived. If true this gives an idea of the design of the figures. I doubt that they will go back to the much more minimalist style of the 80's. Interesting to see if GW have the capacity to support an additional product line and where it will fit with thier busy release schedules. |
Johnp4000 | 10 Apr 2022 9:56 a.m. PST |
I suspect that GW will struggle to match the expectations of the still many WFB players out there, especially considering the division in the hobby between 6/7th fans v 8th WFB editions. I also wonder how considering the heavy focus on pumping out stuff for 40K how the Old World range would sit on the production line unless they re-issued old molds like they did recently with the 3rd edition Black Templars/Dark Elves set? |
The H Man | 10 Apr 2022 4:36 p.m. PST |
I feel one of the problems with GW games is the over reliance on big things. Like hippogriff units, using the above example. Or the Pegasus units. Such things are supposed to be kept for the odd hero to ride, not entire units of them! Hopefully they don't go down that path and instead concentrate on more basic troops. I still feel a lot of this hinges on LOTR. If the licence is to continue, they won't want something that looks the same. If it's to end, they will want something that looks the same to keep existing customers. I still wonder if this is the real reason for TOW being considered at all, and may reflect the sudden reveal then gradual release of info. Perhaps they were told the licence had 2 years left, barely enough time to create a replacement, so started early with info in an attempt to start converting LOTR players while attracting old fans back to compensate for any dip in sales when LOTR ends and TOW begins. Also recasting from existing (if they exist) moulds sounds like a cheap idea. However… The moulds may be lost or damaged. Creating new moulds may require scanning of the original 3ups for CNC milling of new moulds, and the 3ups or their transition moulds may not exist/be in good enough condition. So new dodgy CG figs may be needed, so you may as well start from scratch. Metal on the other hand… Much easier to recast and cheaper for moulds, also good for more limited numbers, even resin (hack, spit) could be used here. I hope they otherwise go down the new hero quest road, just make the figures the same, but different. That may keep most people happy. |
Legend of Doom | 11 Apr 2022 2:51 a.m. PST |
The original announcement was in Novmber 2019 and that warned that the project was 2-3 years away. The process may have been slowed by the lockdown so who knows if and when the Olde Worde will be released. Other than it being on 20x20 squares nothing much has been confirmed Anecdotal rumours abound that the Total War, which has a huge following, has caused players of that game to wander into GW stores and asking questions about figures which are no longer available and so if , these rumours are true, it may be that GW is hoping to tap into the market of WFB hold outs who did not embrace Age of $igmar or, a potential market of computer gamers tempted to dip their toys in tabletop. If its the latter than tying the figures with the game would be the smart opton but who knows. If GW could sell units of hippogryffs they will, Imagibe a box plastic assembly with 3 such beasts at £120.00 GBP why woyuld GW not go down that route |
QUATERMASS | 11 Apr 2022 3:00 a.m. PST |
Or they could let someone else have a go! Rent out the IP to some smaller company they would jump at the chance! And just as they start to build up the brand GW could simply pull it back and screw sed company. |
The H Man | 12 Apr 2022 5:04 p.m. PST |
Pretty much what mantic did with king's of war, only they did it for free, even used "the game of fantasy battles." WFB is pretty generic, tweeked this way or that. Actually many AOS players probably wouldn't even recognise many figures as being Warhammer figures anyway. Especially if you mix them up with some other comps figures from varying decades. Original slann, 90s slann, modern slann, for example. Plus Saurus (who do not ride cold ones). A dwarf is a dwarf is a dwarf… Would the real Warhammer giant please raise his hand. Are green skins cartoony and humerus, or dark and grim, GW doesn't know! For 40k, look at the Necrons, and androids. Tyranids, even space marines. Wait a minute…GW figures aren't metal?!? And they never had Star Treks enterprise on the cover of white dwarf either. What kind of loser company would have it's pooper players want to make a tank from a deodorant bottle? Make your own terrain??? Oh, you mean shake the rattley box, right? So on… |
The H Man | 14 Apr 2022 2:17 a.m. PST |
Just realised GW have at least 4 different fantasy universes going, from a WHF fan point of view, of course (As it's not related to AOS in any way whatsoever). Being: AOS The Old World Lotr Blood bowl Any I missed, apart from 40k, of course? |
Stalkey and Co | 05 Jun 2022 7:00 p.m. PST |
They shouldn't even bother at this point. Kings of War so crushes Warhammer Fantasy that it is a waste of time to attempt to beat Mantic. I think you can pretty much always get Mantic for half or less the price of GW, unit for unit, fig for fig. And KoW is the set of rules that GW should have approved. I'd be willing to bet that Alessio Cavatore left because he just wanted to finally publish a set of mass fantasy battle rules that weren't a convoluted nightmare. That being said, I'm not above the occasional small battle with 5th edition WHFB. |
The H Man | 07 Jun 2022 5:44 p.m. PST |
Actually I believe AC was asked to write the KOW rules, after(?) the models proved successful. Where KOW fails (without having played it) is in the non shrinking, nor adaptable units. Thats what put me off. A horde of zombies balancing on a tree, for example. Then they suddenly vanish. Reforming units just made WHF actually playable without having to have terrain a mile apart and the shrinking units were just realistic and gave everyone an easy idea of what was going on. KOW can fix these issues, or you can at home. Make each rank worth 1 wound, and remove a rank when a wound is taken. For example. Really a better Mantic idea may be to have the size of the unit drop to the next smaller unit as they take wounds. Do, horde to regiment to troop to gone, for example. From memory I think units can change facing to their side? If that's right, that's at last something. |
Legend of Doom | 03 Nov 2022 4:11 p.m. PST |
In case anyone missed it, GW made an "announcement" of sorts, with an "update". I use these terms loosely as there is really nothing much being revealed . However, to wet your appetite they promise So that's it for now, but stay tuned to the Warhammer Community website for more information throughout 2023, which is of course the 40th birthday year of the venerable game of Warhammer! Quite what that means is to be determined. Perhaps The Olde Worlde could see a release to sync with a 40th anniversary? Perhaps, there could be Brettonians and Tomb Kings? Perhaps …
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WarpSpeed | 12 Nov 2022 8:36 p.m. PST |
Bound to be heroic 32mm so you cant use your old models. |
Legend of Doom | 14 Nov 2022 3:15 p.m. PST |
GW made an announcement on 21 July 2021 that the game would use the same scale as before ( presumably 8th ed) which was 28mm scale figures link |
David Johansen | 15 Nov 2022 5:59 p.m. PST |
I hope they can recognize the reasons 8th edition Warhammer was a failure. I hope they move back towards 6th edition's far more reasonable and fun game. One thing I would from eighth keep is the 25% Lords, 25% Heros, 50% core mix. It gets rid of half the points in one model armies but doesn't hamstring armies like Empire and Orcs in the hero department. They could probably keep the simplified movement. I've bring back pushbacks and interpenetration but I realize that's going too far. Maybe Toughness and Strength A, B, C ? |
wizbangs | 15 Nov 2022 7:34 p.m. PST |
I've been watching what is being turned out in Total War III and am thinking that new Kislev and Grand Cathay armies will make the grade. There aren't any similar armies to Grand Cathay on the market right now, so they could generate a lot of interest/demand with that. |
Legend of Doom | 16 Nov 2022 6:24 a.m. PST |
I wondered if cost was a factor. GW had moved the game around units of 20-30 infantry but rather than have a unit box with say 20 figures ( like they did back in the last 90's when the current style of plastic sets was developed) they moved those to 10 figures so that a standard unit could cost £75.00 GBP-£90 which was really expensive for an army which might have required 5 or 6 such units plus artillery or monsters. So they priced the game out of the market. Having said that, I see 40K players splashing out £200.00 GBP for an army. I like the Kislve designs, they clearly have historical inspiration but other than the winged lancers , they are very different from thier histoircal counteparts in appearance. |
The H Man | 02 Jan 2023 12:40 a.m. PST |
I may have said this before, but I wonder if the LOTR licence isn't coming to an end. Perhaps GW need a replacement to fill the historical/fantasy role, as opposed to AOS computer/fantasy. They may also realise they can make fore money from WH as the figures can be slightly larger, thus more expensive. |
Legend of Doom | 02 Jan 2023 5:05 p.m. PST |
How much longer can GW tease us with fleeting glimpses of what may be . Acht, the suspense is too much . Please end the torment It is of course possible that they may quietly drop this but it seems odd after having being dropping hints for the past few years |
The H Man | 03 Jan 2023 2:59 a.m. PST |
Perhaps there were concerns over the LOTR licence, with the tv show. Perhaps they though they may lose, or were considering dropping the licence. It would make sense for them to prepare a backup to replace the LOTR game and try to draw some interest across to it, while also testing interest on the Net. GW basically gave up to mantic, where rank and file high fantasy miniature games are concerned, a while back, so its an odd time to try to fight back from basically no existing position in the market. There had to be another reason. |
wizbangs | 04 Jan 2023 8:17 p.m. PST |
Agreed. And with so many knock-offs available for 3D printing out there, and figures dumped onto EBAY after they killed it, I'm surprised they're choosing a human historic-centric realm like the Old World. If they do launch it, I don't think they support it much beyond introducing the new armies. I can't see them selling a lot of their Old World standards due to the current market condition. |
The H Man | 06 Jan 2023 2:50 a.m. PST |
The main problem is to figure out who its for and how to present it properly. They have new kids hooked on marines and, well, golden marines. Original players probably won't go for those type of minis. Then there is realistic, like LOTR, but that's not WFB traditional either. It's like they have realistic LOTR, computer game AOS, and now want cartoony WFB as well. Maybe that's it? But all they'll be doing by that is spreading out the already thin number of "not into 40k" players. I think another idea would be to just sort out the rules, print a new book. Then go through all the minis and simply, and cheaply rerelease loads. Plastic sounds good, as there have been many, buy if the moulds exist, they will be for older setups and could be a problem. Metal on the other hand, and I mean metal, could be very cheaply set up. Only the metal itself would be an expense. Probably quicker than resin?? Too. Then you have the best of all the classic figures and a new rule book. GW only need a chap or two melting metal in a garden shed. This, of course would offer a HUGE contrast to the plastic and resin figures. It would be much more traditional, as it should be. |
Bradley1017 | 06 Jan 2023 1:35 p.m. PST |
I get the fact they have to make money but honestly there are a lot of fantasy rules that are really good on the market. The problem is that GW tends to be the trend setter and always seems to draw the most players. The rules can be crap and tons would still play because its GW. I played it when it first came out and they lost me when they started charging an arm and a leg. Then they lost me again when all the newer kits take an engineering degree to put together. I refuse to pay a lot of money for something i have to put together out of plastic. |
The H Man | 06 Jan 2023 2:36 p.m. PST |
I'm not sure GW are a trend setter. For example I just noticed their blood bowl necromancer team. I haven't checked dates, but I believe we have Mantic to thank for that. Also even 40k is just based on existing trends, Terminator, Aliens, Japanese animation, high fantasy, Starship troopers, so on. Take away established trends and there is no 40k. They are supposed to be Prestige items. GW arnt a hobby company. They simply produce and sell rattly boxes. They are like THX 1138 products, but with better moulding. |
Legend of Doom | 10 Jan 2023 11:30 a.m. PST |
I look at many of the figure ranges out there and it is clear that companies like Avatars of War and the various others shown on the here in this excellent resource link are really emulating GW. I don't really see much innovation in terms of independant world builder |
The H Man | 10 Jan 2023 4:32 p.m. PST |
Yes, but. With WFB GW was very much emulating D&D, the game Warhammer was replacing. History lesson.. GW made board game bits, then started importing other comps games, like TSRs Dungeons and dragons. Then Citadel (it was either setup by, or bought by GW?) started producing figures to go with the D&D game. Then TSR startd doing its own distribution, leaving GW with models and no game. So Warhammer was written. Or words to that effect. Basically Warhammer is very much a derivative of D&D. Which in turn is based on Lord of the rings, Conan and such. These others comps may be copying the WFB Style, but are they? Were does Warcraft fit in? There are too many games to say people are definitely copying GW. I'm thinking of orcs a lot. The square jawed Green Orc, was that a GW thing, or did it come from elsewhere? Exactly what are people copying that is distinctly GW? In having a quick research, I was reminded that the first edition of Warhammer used round bases, I believe in a skirmish Style?? Sounds like LOTR a bit, doesn't it. I thought they chanfed the scale (smaller) and game Style (round skirmish) to be different from WFB for licence reasons, but in fact these two things only made it similar to 1st edition. |
Legend of Doom | 14 Mar 2023 3:23 a.m. PST |
time to stir the pot link Looks like progress of sorts, its interesting to see these two armies being devolped given that they were deleted from Ao$. I suspect that much of the discussion above will prove to have been entirely moot |
Legend of Doom | 14 Apr 2023 11:57 a.m. PST |
latest teaser news of sorts link 20x20mm are gone , replaced by 25x25 bases . This brings the game in line with the basing of Oathmark, I doubt that GW are even aware of the existence of Oathmark or view it as a threat at all. It seems odd to me, if this is all just a big tease and it looks like they are preparing a launch of this at some stage. Perhaps by the end of the year. Last night I was in a games shop and spotted a bix of the Lumineth ( i.e High Elvs) heavy cavalry and I though they would look great as Silver Helms but dammit, will they fit on a 25x50. I do wonder which of the Orks, undead or chaos ranges for Age of Sigmar will be usueable. |
Johnp4000 | 18 Apr 2023 2:22 a.m. PST |
Legend, You it is interesting that Bretonnia which finally looks that it going to get an overhaul with a new foot knights unit, just think of all those poor sellers on ebay losing out when GW re-releases all the old Bret and Tomb King models. |
Griefbringer | 26 Apr 2023 4:57 a.m. PST |
20x20mm are gone , replaced by 25x25 bases . This brings the game in line with the basing of Oathmark, I doubt that GW are even aware of the existence of Oathmark or view it as a threat at all. Coincidentally, this also matches with the basing convention of the Fantasy Warriors game (Grenadier 1991), where infantry were nominally to be based on 1 inch square bases. However, there is also this curious bit: Most (but not all) 25mm and 25×50 bases have been replaced with new-sized bases. Which I presume means that there will be a new intermediate base size introduced between 25 x 25 and 40 x 40 mm base sizes. And then there is this return to old practice: Q: How do I know the correct base size for my models? A: Base sizes will be given in every model's profile. Back in the WHFB 3rd edition rules, the base size was clearly indicated in the profiles. Afterwards it was no longer specified, with the players recommended to use whatever base size model was supplied with (which led to all sorts of confusion, especially as some of the models were not supplied with models and some of the creatures from the books did not have official models available). |
Albus Malum | 02 May 2023 2:38 p.m. PST |
While not a Warhammer player ( though heavily into Fantasy miniatures/ wargaming (15mm) and RPG) What GW needs to do, is to combine all of WHFB with the LOTR miniatures make stats for them all, and make everything useable in their game system. Realistically, to me, it looks like OPR is going to be in the future, a very well supported ans widely played system. Lots of 3d STL miniature creators are creating all sorts of armies with much more artistic style and creativity then GW is ever likely to produce, and many are making a new "army" on a monthly basis. GW needs to just accept the fact that they are a dinosaur, or they need to really start producing new stuff at a very affordable price. Why would anyone continue to use there game systems, when one month Dragon Trappers lodge( chosen only at random) produces a Full King Kong type army ( ~10 dollars on MMF or Patreon), that someone can print up in a few days of print with a resin printer, and a month later produces a fully functional fairies army, or Highland Minatures gives a full Goblin army, and if you dont like that, OPR's patreon can give them a wonderful Undead army, or what ever. There is no need for GW any more. they are finished. There are tons of different MyMinifactory Tribes or Patreons one could choose from. Where is the GW's new army? or old army for the old world? well maybe it will show up this year, or maybe the next? if ever? Every one is supposed to wait hoping for something from them? Why not drop 300 dollars on a printer and some resin, and play any ruleset you want, instead of waiting for for some long awaited ruleset from GW which will say you can only use their minatures? Round bases, square bases, thats the only thing GW has to offer nowdays. Nothing about GW is original, they copied everthing. If you like their world, great play in it with what ever miniatures you want or own. Take your GW miniatures and play in what ever world you want. Mix GW 3d printed miniatures together. Make your own army, make your own rules if you want. just dont let yourself be bound by GW! |
QUATERMASS | 03 May 2023 5:34 p.m. PST |
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Griefbringer | 05 May 2023 4:09 a.m. PST |
What GW needs to do, is to combine all of WHFB with the LOTR miniatures make stats for them all, and make everything useable in their game system. AFAIK the lisencing agreements for LotR limit what GW can do with that franchise, and presumably one of the conditions is that the LotR products and those for GW settings need to be kept separate by GW (so they cannot write rules that would pit Aragorn and his ranger companions against an incursion of Slaaneshi Chaos Space Marines intent on raiding the herbal gardens of Shire). If you like their world, great play in it with what ever miniatures you want or own. Take your GW miniatures and play in what ever world you want. Mix GW 3d printed miniatures together. Make your own army, make your own rules if you want. I am fond of a number of figures GW has made over the years, and I have enjoyed several of the rule sets they have released over the years, and I have particularly enjoyed some of the background material they have released over the years for their own settings. That said, I do not feel by any means bound to them, and I do own a whole lot of miniatures and rules from other manufacturers. And I am not particularly waiting for this "Old World" product range, which seems to have been in the workings for a very long time, but I think I will try pay it at least some attention in detail once it actually gets released. Round bases, square bases, thats the only thing GW has to offer nowdays. Actually, basing standards matter a whole lot to a whole lot of people, and this is actually a subject where GW could have done more consistently over the years. _________________________________________________________ One thing that GW games have had in their favour is that they have been popular and widely available for the last 30+ years. And being popular can become a bit of a self-maintaining cycle, as relatively large numbers of people are continuously exposed to the product. Being popular also means that there is a common standard which makes it easier to get in to the game: if you learn the rules and put together ONE force using the standard figure scale and basing, you will be easily able to play against any other players in the area who have adopted the same rules, figure scale and basing standard. Having the freedom to choose any ruleset (including one of your own writing), setting, figure scale and basing standard is of course a great asset. However, those choosing an unpopular combination may need to be prepared to: 1.) Put together at least two opposing forces, AND either 2a.) enjoy solo gaming OR 2b.) be good at convincing other people to learn the rules in question [That said, it is difficult to predict prior to their release whether the Old World rules will actual attain widespread popularity – not all GW game releases over the years have done so.] |
The H Man | 10 May 2023 4:03 p.m. PST |
Not happy with the base size change. Obviously GW will be making new models to fit in them, so traditional basing will prove difficult. Flocks of Pegasus, grumble. Individual bases at least. I just wonder how the rules work there, after kows boards of models. Would have been nice to see a step back toward Toy soldier Style, like the early 90s plastics, leaving huge bases and crazy porcupine models to AOS for people to ignore. Oh well. Could be a lot worse, may still be. Oh, and the next part work? I may suspect. And another thing. What if TOW sells better than AOS? You can use TOW/WFB models in more games than AOS could be used. Even historical games to some extent. I remember the Bretionan archers seemed very popular for medieval. But, it is a double edge sword. There are many more historical and fantasy minis today than in 2000. So many people may use those for Empire and Bretiona, not to mention other armies. But, you certainly can't use them for AOS effectively. PS make that 2015. So we may not even be without it a decade. Also, I guess the base sizes may be okish. Thinking of those archers with their toes sticking out. However, that's how you get tight units. I fear the new based will make things look less battle like and more Sunday stroll. |
The H Man | 10 May 2023 5:04 p.m. PST |
Also. The New bits seem to be upgrades, not complete new models? Orcs look the same also. I suspect toomb kings will get new models, as they were based on the older skeleton frame, if I remember correctly. Perhaps that's why we aren't seeing them yet. |
Griefbringer | 11 May 2023 10:58 p.m. PST |
You can use TOW/WFB models in more games than AOS could be used. Even historical games to some extent. I remember the Bretionan archers seemed very popular for medieval. While the older Empire and Bretonnian models could be used for historical purposes, the newer releases (2004 for Bretonnians and 2007 for Empire) went farther into the fantasy side and would be tricky to use for historicals. Also, I guess the base sizes may be okish. Thinking of those archers with their toes sticking out.However, that's how you get tight units. I fear the new based will make things look less battle like and more Sunday stroll. I have reservation about the base sizes, but the Bretonnian men-at-arms pictured do not look too bad on the 25 mm x 25 mm bases. That said, if you have spare models and bases lying around you could do a simple test: stick (with Bluetac etc.) a dozen models on 20 mm x 20 mm bases and another dozen models on 25 mm x 25 mm bases. Then set them both next a few pieces of terrain and see how they appear. |
The H Man | 12 May 2023 2:02 a.m. PST |
Yes, a com pic could be useful. Larger bases, hmm… The reasons, causes and effects? Making it easier to base and arrange is obvious, buy they could have done it decades ago. They did not. I believe the first WH figures (d&d remnants) were on 25mm round. Then they changed to square. So they could make base changed, if they wanted. Epic 40k is another, square to rectangular. So it isn't impossible. No, there is a reason beyond simple logic. Cha-ching. There are useful unit sizes and ridiculous ones. They fased out units of less than 10 figures (that's a hint). I like the ability to have 3-5 man units, but can understand the strain on the rules and those writing them. 10 (cough 5 cough) is rational. Buy rational is not how GW works. Money is. 10 men cost more than 3 men. I suggest this is why bases stayd at 20mm. You can fit more men in a unit. Thus you pay more for a unit. Points wise, you usually had a caption, so having two units instead of one meant extra game points for a caption and any magic item he may have (I think captions could take one?). That's less points already to spend on figures that cost money. Anyway, another thing. Competition. Kow, like it or not is Tow competition. They use unit bases as an option, meaning you can buy less figures. Not a GW ideal. However, it is something they must consider, as players with limited funds certainly will. Multi basing is ridiculous, mantic Style at least. Its what leads to a Hoad of zombies balancing on a tree. So, how can you compete with units of less figures? Have units of less figures. GW don't really have a choice, unless they sell things cheaper… So they upped the base size "because it makes models easier to handle," and not "because it makes models competitive in the market place." Points. Expect to see more expensive models, points wise. Why? To keep unit sizes down, as they now have bigger bases. There are ideal unit sizes, or things get balanced on trees. One other competitive benefit of larger bases is that they are larger then kow and some other minis bases. "Take that Ronnie, now no one can use your models!" No, that one doesn't really work. So the base change wasn't to stop people using other figures. After all many people will be using existing GW figures and many will be changing the bases. So it would actually be easier to buy kow figs and just stick them on larger bases (like many folk do already, hence the zombie hoard up a tree), than rebase an existing WFB army (less the painting, of course). |
The H Man | 13 May 2023 4:05 p.m. PST |
It sounds like GW will sell new bases to rebase your existing army. A few issues here. When will they start selling the bases? Hopefully soon, both for then and us. People are already rebasing, so GW are already losing money as they have to buy them elsewhere. Speaking of, how much will they cost? Current bases on their site are extortionate. They used to be about 20c au each in a bag of 100. You can find them even cheaper now online. Most people will need at least 100 for one army alone, not to mention all the armies some people may have. 10 25mm for $8 USDau + postage no thank you. They will have to do a lot better than that. Cheaper bulk bases early please. |
The H Man | 13 May 2023 5:32 p.m. PST |
It is also interesting/concerning that GW say you can use movement trays reather than rebasing models. If the rules are as they were regarding a unit being the size of the models bases, as opposed to kow using the initial size the game through, then a few things come up. Firstly, if you use a traditional movement tray, how do you know how the bases sit? If it's supposed to represent 25mm, but all the models are 20mm how can you tell where the 25mm bases are? I guess the easy solution is to rule up the base with a pen into 25mm grid. Any GW trays made would have to have score marks for the bases. I seem to remember some used to? However. What if that's not what GW mean? What if units aren't going to deplete? Maybe I missed it? Please let us know. Do they specifically mention model removal? They may be taking a kow approach and not remove models any more. They may even begin to encourage Multi basing. No, I must have missed something, I hope. Also, you would have to leave the 20mm models on the tray with the exception of casualties, as pulling them off to line up for combat would be back to square one. So if they stay on the tray, how do terrain and rear attacks work. You can't put the last model up against a fence, as there may be 3 ranks of empty tray behind him. Also any unit charging from the rear will be on the units movement tray. What a mess! A simple solution would be to have extra trays of different rank sizes, or all single rank trays. But that's just getting complicated. Rebasing does sound easier. But still have an unnerving feeling that kow influence may be in it somewhere. |
Griefbringer | 13 May 2023 11:39 p.m. PST |
When will they start selling the bases? Certainly not before they release the actual game. I would presume a few months after the release. In any case, it is a bit challenging to start rebasing ahead, when the new base sizes are not generally known (other than the 20 x 20 -> 25 x 25 transition). What if units aren't going to deplete? Maybe I missed it? Please let us know. Do they specifically mention model removal? They may be taking a kow approach and not remove models any more. There is very little known about the actual game mechanisms at the moment, but I would be extremely surprised if there would not be casualty removal. These are GW rules after all. They may even begin to encourage Multi basing. They have to some extent have done in the past, by explicitely releasing bases where you could mount three or four figures side-by-side, though part of the unit needed to be individually mounted to facilitate casualty removal. |
The H Man | 14 May 2023 1:40 a.m. PST |
Thank you. I still feel loose bases will arrive pretty quickly though. If they don't, less people will be playing right away, as they await bases, or worse (for GW) and they use 3rd party bases. They would be sure to want as many people as possible playing as quickly as possible at clubs and stores around the world, and that means having people get their armies rebases ASAP. Having a launch of a "new" game and then most players hiding away for x time while they muck around rebasing would be sure to be a party popper. GW would want people playing right away to help push things. The other games already have bases and they will be being made for TOW, so it seems logical to me. Waiting months for people to rebase armies would be a bad thing. I get the issues with base size at the moment though. I expect they will be coming out in the next 3-4 months, if not sooner, along with more basing info. We should use old 20mms as chips for betting. Yes, they did have the bases for more than 1 figure. I think night goblins came with them? Though there were some 40x40, 50x50s being used before by savvy gamers. I remember the skeleton sprue article with 40x40 shield Wall bases. Those types of bases don't bother me, but the square ones look better to me. |
The H Man | 16 May 2023 3:20 a.m. PST |
I would, like most folk, what army changes there will be. Already they say Bretiona can be more uniform in colour. This does seem practical, as they are apparently leaving Multi color options open. Thy site the earlier date in the time line of the game for this, lucky. What were other armies like back them? Perhaps the beast men will be less developed and more animal. Like that bit of text from somewhere (Chaos beasts? And white dwarf) about animals standing upright. Like in those weird medieval pictures. That would be interesting. But I doubt they are going to make new models for them? More ferral orcs? Were they less evolved back them? This may be an actual reality (if I have my timeline right, or GW get out the retcon wand). Ferral orcs and forest goblins would make the greenskins easier for release. Night goblins probably haven't ventured out of their caves yet, or some such, and orcs can't figure out a pointy end let alone make a bow. Maybe that's going back too far? But would make life easier for GW. Its interesting Tomb kings feature. I always got the vibe that some mummies happened along to join undead, before full Tomb king armies eventually pulled themselves out of the sand. Perhaps more in the real world. Slann? Was there still a time they weren't so fat and idle? |
The H Man | 17 May 2023 4:57 a.m. PST |
I wonder if the rules for AOS and TOW will see this the epic battle of GW? Apparently TOW will be basically WFB, not a simplified shell. AOS is, to my understanding, a simplified shell. So will new players not think a simple game is for babies? Will they not want to play the "adult" game? I suspect most people would wish to avoid the cliffs notes version. After all, if after a simplified fantasy Mini Game, doesn't LOTR fit the bill? |
Griefbringer | 17 May 2023 5:45 a.m. PST |
Thy site the earlier date in the time line of the game for this, lucky.What were other armies like back them? As far as I have understood, the nominal setting for ToW is around 2000 IC or so, i.e. around 500 years before the "End Times" period. Not that there is likely to be anything in the rules to prevent playing games set earlier or later, though (also the WHFB products tended to include material for playing actions set in various parts of the history of the world). By that time, most of the nations/races/armies are quite established/developed. When it comes to the human realms, Kislev is relatively young (established around 1750 IC I think), Moussillon is still an ordinary part of Bretonnia (the affair of false grail happened around 2300 IC), Marienburg and the Westerland are still formally part of the Empire (not that it really matters) with a noble as a ruler, and the Empire is split into multiple factions with multiple claimants to the Imperial throne battling against each other (a period known as The Age of Three Emperors). The last item means that Empire vs. Empire battles could be quite fluffy, assuming that the forces involved represent competing ones from different parts of the realm. |
Griefbringer | 17 May 2023 10:48 p.m. PST |
I forgot the establishment of the colleges of magic in the Empire, which happened in the early 24th century IC. So in games before that, the Empire armies access to magic should in principle be more limited, and the magic itself more primitive. |
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