"Austro-Hungarian helmeted infantry regiments in 1809 ?" Topic

Hello everyone,

I read somewhere that during the 1809 campaign,there were still Austro-Hungarian infantry regiments still wearing the 1798 model helmet?

If yes, which ones ?

Thank you.

I can't tell you however my understanding the Hungarian regiments were all in Shako's by the 1809 campaign. My Austrians are based on the IV Korps of 1809, with only two regiments with the old style helmets.
The major issue I have is whether to have two or three battalions painted up. I in the end went for a mix of both options but the third battalions were always weaker. Any comments.

The question of helmets or shakos in 1809 is an old and thorny one. As R Alley says, the 'rule of thumb' is that the 'Hungarians' were in shakos and the 'Germans' in helmets. However, there were individual regiments where the opposite applied. All you can do is try and research the regiments you are interested in and see what you can pin down.

The move to shakos started with the Hungarian foot regiments and by 1809, a number of units were still to receive the shako. See this link TMP link

First,thank you all,

@ R Alley:

You write: "With only two regiments with the old style helmets".

Which ?

PS: there were no Old Style or new style helmets, only one type of infantry helmet, which appeared in 1798…

@ Artilleryman:

You write: "The 'rule of thumb' is that the 'Hungarians' were in shakos and the 'Germans' in helmets"???

Strange, I would have thought that ethnic origin had nothing to do with it…

But what seems to repeat the most on the link:

TMP link

You also write:

"All you can do is try and research the regiments you are interested in and see what you can pin down".

On the contrary, I am looking for the regiments on the first, then I will see what I can do afterwards.

@ Marcus Maximus:

Well done and thank you!

But what are your personal opinions?

Personally I go with what the usual party line is, German infantry in helmets, Hungarian in shakos – apparently for some reason known only to the Imperial quartermasters the Hungarians received shakos first (may have been pragmatic – they were from different parts of the Empire and it might have been logistically easier) and while I am sure there were variations it does make things a lot easier on the gaming and painting table

Wasn't the 1809 Hungarian shako more like the grenzer one ( sort of stovepipe) than the double billed line shako associated with 1814 campaigning?

All Hungarians had the shako in 1809? And all the others had the helmet?

Just another trolling exercise in forum baiting…

The Redux thread has all the links and info required… mass-debated in fact… go fish___

I don't have my infantry painted to represent a specific regiment. I just vary the facing colours so I can tell the regiments apart on the table. Not a purest on such things. Its more important to me you have the right number of battalions on the table and amount of artillery. It always annoys me so many OB's don't mention the artillery especially in the later years when artillery became so important as the quality of troops fell.

LOL – In order not to be bored by this story of helmets, it is better to play 1805…

Have a gander at Enrico Acerbi's The Austrian Imperial-Royal Army (Kaiserliche-Königliche Heer) 1805 – 1809 which is an incredibly masive study of the organization, units and uniforms of the Austrian Army on Napoleon Series link
At the bottom of the page is a dropdown which you can use to go to the different recruitment areas, the feldjager, cavalry, grenz regiments etc.
Certainly a quick glance at the illuistartions endorses the German regiments in helmets & Hungarian regiments in shakos.

Thank you.

Most armies tended to have quartermasters who said: "We're not giving you any of the new stuff until you've worn out the old stuff." So I strongly suspect the transition from helmet to shako was done in a haphazard fashion which extended over a considerable period of time.

Go for the link Marcus Maximus did supply.

I'm pleased this question has re-surfaced – makes me review previous threads. My notes:

Grecian helmets:
* Officers: Golden helmet comb, black-over-gold kammgarten (comb-garden)
* Other ranks: Black helmet comb, black-over-yellow kammgarten.
* Company drummers: Black helmet comb, black-over-red kammgarten.

Using: Napoleon Online – IR03 Archduke Charles – Officers and Men:

Tarleton-style helmet:
* Staff music officer: black raupen/caterpillar, facing-colour-over-white side-plume
Grecian helmet:
* Staff drummer: Black helmet comb, facing-colour-over-white kammgarten

Finally for 1805, we are quiet they were without shakos.

But were any still wearing the Kasket?

I'll get my hat,
John

My view is they did wear the helmet in 1805 and not any longer the Kasket – the transition period started in 1798 (and not any longer with the Kasket, but also the hip pack being re placed with a back one and other details) but the bulk of the Austrian Army would still be in Kaskets in 1800 (with few exceptions like the Bussy Jäger)

And which known regiments wear the helmet in 1809 and which known regiments wear the Shako in 1809?

As these regiments have distinctive colors, if you don't know them you can't paint anything…

All the "Germans" in helmets and all the "Hungarians" in shakos in 1809, it's too simplistic for me.

In 1809, perhaps there were already "Germans in shakos and still "Hungarians" in helmets?

I thought and concur the "The Austrian Imperial-Royal Army (Kaiserliche-Königliche Heer) 1805 – 1809: By Enrico Acerbi" on N-S contains everything one would want.
- -

Bravo and thank you.

his topic comes up every year – isn't there a redux on this?

This may be of interest, please paste and copy

Csákó is an ancient hungarian word which means "tall hat". (Dr. Ida Bobula tells it came from a Sumerian root through Medians, Dacians etc.) It was the Hussar hat which was a Klobuk anyway ( a slavic term)
As for the Grenzers
In December 23, 1795 Gränzberichtigung it was written:
Von der Mondir=und Uniformirung (sic)
The Grenzer must wear the Aerarial=Montur. In the Grenz Service this consists in:
1 Csako, 1 Mantel, 1 black coat von Haustuch (a sort of square apron in an extremely hard-wearing quality with side-sewn tie-bands) … note that the repeated washing of those coats maybe did cause the black hue fading to the known dark brown., 1 white corsage (Leibel), 1 pair of white trousers and a pair of Bundschuh (traditional historic leather shoes tied with a long strap).
source: Staatskunde und Geschichte von Dalmatien, Croatien un Slawonien, 1798
As for the Austrians
The "official" (k.k. sources) substitution of Caskets with Shakos began after the December 1807 Verordnung in 1808 (with some exceptions – see after) but went ahead in a very cumbersome way (due of lack of resources and the exaggerated increase in troopers considering the Landwehr units). The first units to receive shakos were the Hungarians (it was a common hat in Insurrectio units) but at the beginning of the 1809 Bavarian campaign several German regiments wore old helmets.
So k.k. IR 54 Morzin (Bohemian) in 1808 "Got the Csako instead of the helmet. Every battalion had its own flag.."
This is from the history of the hungarian k.k.IR 34 FZM baron Paul Davidovich – Year is 1807.
"In September we received the imperial infantry Czakos instead of the helmet as head protection, the Grenadiers, however, maintained their Bärenmützen."
And this is from the history of the hungarian k.k.IR 30 De Ligne (Galician) and from k.k. IR62 Jellacich (Hungarian)
" In December 1806 the infantry got the Csako instead of the helmet. This was made of black tissue, reinforced hardly on the top [mit einem Sonnen-Nacken- und zwei Seiten-Schirmen versehen, vorne mit einer Schlinge und Cocarde von Messing sowie mit einer schwarz-gelben Rose verziert. ] Als o the Officers wore the Czako like troopers, but without Nacken- und Seiten-Schirm and did have [Schlinge, Cocarde, Rose sowie Chargen-Abzeichen von Goldborten.] Corporals had one yellow [Harrasborte], Führern and Feldwebeln had two yellow [Harrasborten] … [bei den Subaltern-Officieren in einer, durch einen schwarzen Streifen getheilten, bei den Hauptleuten in einer breiten goldenen Borte; die Stabsofficiere erhielten goldbortierte Hüte ohne Federbusch.
Sorry but I leave those technical terms of uniforms to the german language friends (too hard for me to translate, not being an uniformologist)
Begging pardon for my translation … but this was very interesting to know
k.k. Hofkriegsrat Verordnung August 18, 1806 ."Reintroduction of the Csako in the Army"
"Keeping in account that the legal duration of the helmet was fixed in 12 years, it appears clear, now, that it was a too much long timing, considering that:
already now, after 6 years of use, only few model of the original manufacture exist;
furthermore the helmet has given proof to be an expensive headgear, considering, in addition, that many helmets were missing due to wounds, prisony et cetera, before their expiration terms of duration;
besides, among infantry, such helmets are considered as uncomfortable;
considering also that many wounds at the head are now an inescapable ordinariness, that the shape of the same helmets is subject to meteorological variations and that their manufacture and reparations cause intolerable expenses for the company commanders;
His Majesty has stated to eliminate them, a bit at a time, in order to equip all infantry units with the Czako.
However this change will have to happen only after each helmet will have reached its expiration date, first beginning only with the Hungarian regiments, acting in a such way to allow the return of the Hungarian infantry helmets back to the Economy Commission, which will deliver them to the German infantry units in order to complete and fulfill stocks and in order to have a number of helmets which could be enough for the whole force; the Commission will deliver a congruous number of Czakos to the Hungarian units, of course.
This will cause a many years delay in the gradually changing of the headgears for the german infantry units.
Officers will retain their helmets till the whole regiment will be ready for the total substitution. Between the german infantry various units it is estimated a legal duration of the helmets for an utter 6 years period. This provision do not exempt Hungarian regiment from avoiding heavy expenses."

von Winterfeldt 12 Oct 2017 11:28 a.m. PST
maybe this helps a bit

"The "official" (k.k. sources) substitution of Caskets with Shakos began after the December 1807 Verordnung in 1808 (with some exceptions – see after) but went ahead in a very cumbersome way (due of lack of resources and the exaggerated increase in troopers considering the Landwehr units). The first units to receive shakos were the Hungarians (it was a common hat in Insurrectio units) but at the beginning of the 1809 Bavarian campaign several German regiments wore old helmets.
So k.k. IR 54 Morzin (Bohemian) in 1808 "Got the Csako instead of the helmet. Every battalion had its own flag.."
This is from the history of the hungarian k.k.IR 34 FZM baron Paul Davidovich – Year is 1807.
"In September we received the imperial infantry Czakos instead of the helmet as head protection, the Grenadiers, however, maintained their Bärenmützen."
And this is from the history of the hungarian k.k.IR 30 De Ligne (Galician) and from k.k. IR62 Jellacich (Hungarian)
" In December 1806 the infantry got the Csako instead of the helmet. This was made of black tissue, reinforced hardly on the top [mit einem Sonnen-Nacken- und zwei Seiten-Schirmen versehen, vorne mit einer Schlinge und Cocarde von Messing sowie mit einer schwarz-gelben Rose verziert. ] Als o the Officers wore the Czako like troopers, but without Nacken- und Seiten-Schirm and did have [Schlinge, Cocarde, Rose sowie Chargen-Abzeichen von Goldborten.] Corporals had one yellow [Harrasborte], Führern and Feldwebeln had two yellow [Harrasborten] … [bei den Subaltern-Officieren in einer, durch einen schwarzen Streifen getheilten, bei den Hauptleuten in einer breiten goldenen Borte; die Stabsofficiere erhielten goldbortierte Hüte ohne Federbusch.

In case there is better evidence and new information than cited above please let me know.

Just for cross reference:
Yes it is item #248 in the Redux.

And further reading~ TMP link

(including vW paste___)
cheers and well done again!
We have the knowledge…. *yAY*
d

Bravo and thank you, but if someone wants to put this topic back online next week, for example, they won't ask you for permission. That's what makes the charm of the forums.

I am not disagreeing but maybe sometimes a search in the archives might help to locate usefull information.

Yes.

Dave Hollins 21 Nov 2007 3:49 a.m. PST 

I frankly doubt if the records exist any more. It is certainly true that the 1806 decree took some time to implement, so as a simple rule of thumb, it tends to be Germans in helmets and Hungarians in shakos for 1809. The Hungarians went first, so you would be wrong to have Hungarians in helmets with some Germans in shakos. However, no-one could dispute a few German units in shakos. Beyond that, officers always bought their own uniforms, so you can have officers in shakos, although officially the helmets were meant to be handed in en bloc. Varnhagen von Ense, who was a north German volunteer joined one of the Bohemian regts at Wagram and he says he bought the uniform of an officer killed at Aspern, which included a shako.
I don't have my sources at work, but I believe Haythorwaite also mentions the shakos were issued on a regiment basis, starting with the Hungarians.