"1806 Prussian Hussar question" Topic

Got a question regarding 1806 Prussian Hussars. I've read that either the cords or the flounders on the mirliton/shako were in a different color to differentiate the squadrons. Is this true and if so does anyone know what those colors would be?

You are quite correct – flounders of different colours for different squadrons, NCOs had black and white flounders and officers silver or gold depending on the colour of their trim

As to the specific colours, must confess that I don't know – here are some contemporary prints but not sure how helpful they are

link

I've read this but vW will be along shortly, or Markus, to explain…

Thanks Frederick. SHaT1984, yes I'll wait for vW or Markus to join in.

Already on the colpack the decoration was the cordons – cords which were fixed to the top rim, hanging down on the right side with two oval flounders and tassels. For the troopers the colour of it served as the only distinction for the squadrons and for that reason had different colours, at the Leib – squadron it was usually white [I couldn't find any information on this, the knots of the sabre straps of the dragoons and cuirassiers may give an indication, but even there it didn't has to be a rule, HCvW]

Will look out my copy of Kling (unfortunately doesn't cover Hussars – only the Dragoons & Cuirassiers) when I get home & post the squadron colours.

Kling on hussars (Die hauptsächlichen Veränderungen der Uniformierung des Husaren-Regiments Fürst Blücher von Wahlstatt (Pomm.) Nr 5 seit 1758. Weimar 1909) doesn't give a list of colours, but just states that they were different and that the Leib squadrons had white flounders.

It seems, the Husaren-Regiment Rudorff [H 2] still wore the old pre-1805 cords on their new model 1805 shakos.

Right back with my Kling – sword knots as follows:

Cuirassiers (except Gendarmes & Garde du Corps):
Leib Squadron – white then other squadrons yellow, blue, green, & red.

Dragoons (except 5th & 6th regiments):
Leib Squadron – white then other squadrons green, blue, yellow, & red.

In the text, Kling says that only the sword knots of the Leib-Escadron were always white, but that the distribution of the other four colours to special squadrons varied.

He quotes (p. 274) a Royal order of 1793 (executed in all regiments in 1796 at the latest), that in all cavalry regiments (means cuirassiers and dragoons, but not the hussars) the swordknots should have the following colours:

Leib: white
2nd: red
3rd: dark blue
4th: dark green
5th: orange yellow

The later variations came from the fact that before 14th November 1808, the Prussian squadrons lined up according to anciennity. Leib-Escadron on the right, the one of the second staff officer on the left, the other three from right to left according to anciennnity of their commanders.

Means, after 1793, in a formed regiment the colours were distributed in the following manner (front towards the top of this page):

red – yellow – green – blue – white
(by anciennity: 2 – 5 – 4 – 3 – 1)

If Kling says that the distribution of colours varied from regiment to regiment, it can be explained as follows: If for example the commander of the 4th squadron (green, ancient to 5) was replaced by a commander who was ancient to 3 as well, the former squadrons 3 and 4 would swap places in the line, but maintain their sword knots with their specific colours. So the new order would be:

red – yellow – blue – green – white
(by anciennity: 2 – 5 – 4 – 3 – 1)

The Leib squadron belonged to the chief of the regiment who was always highest in rank (or at least in ancienity).

Thanks Oliver for making so clear.

the mentioning of the swort knots of Dragoons and Cuirassiers was only given, to see what colours were used, Hussar regiments with the exception of hussar battalion Biela had 10 squadrons, we know only that the colour of the tassels and flounders were white for the 1st squadron, the rest is not known.

Also for the two Prussian dragoon regiments which had 10 squadrons, the colours of the 6th to 10th squadrons seem to be unknown. Even Kling could not find them.

Obviously Kling didn't consult the 2-volume regimental history of Albedyll (Kürassier-Regiment No. 2); he writes on page 600 of volume I that in 1796 the colors of the sword knots for cavalry squadrons were prescribed as follows:

Leib-Eskadron (1st squadron) => white
2nd squadron => yellow
3rd squadron => green
4th squadron => light blue
5th squadron => red
6th squadron => black
7th squadron => dark blue
8th squadron => carmine red
9th squadron => orange
10th squadron => violet

And for those not too familiar with the ancestries of the prussian/German regiments – in 1796 the later 2nd cuirassier regiment had been the dragoon regiment Anspach-Bayreuth, which became the famous Königin Dragoner Regiment (queen's dragoon regiment) in 1797.

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein

Thanks Markus, in case does he prescribe this just for his regiment or in general for 10 squadron strong regiments?

Albedyll refers to the change of swordknot colour in the Prussian infantry some time before and he describes the squadron colours as a change in the Cavalry in general.

Greetings to Franconia
Markus Stein

Here the original text of Albedyll preliminary to the swordknot colour list:

„Nachdem die Infanterie seit 1. Januar 1794 bestimmte Farben für die Troddeln der Faustriemen erhalten hatte, bekam jetzt auch die Kavallerie solche, und zwar die:"

So Albedyll mentions the cavalry in general – perhaps a restriction to 10-squadron-Regiments? This may be validated via other (comprehensive) Regimental histories.

Greetings from Berlin
Markus Stein

Thanks interesting – the Towarczys – regiment had also a 10 squadron formation, here however the lance penons had a different arrangement of colours that the sword knot system for 10 squadron dragoon regiments.

vW, are you aware of the lance pennons for the Towarczys? I'll be painting that soon and it would be great to know.

Thank you!

A big thanks to everyone for pitching in. This was a great exchange of information.

Indeed I am aware of them, I was under the impression I covered this topic already on tmp.

TMP link

TMP link

here the links where you will find answer to your question of lance pennons

TMP link

@vW thanks for flagging up as had lost the thread on pennons,

I have a question, is von Winterfeldt the pseudonym for Dr. Stephen Summerfield or is vW someone else?

Just curious.

No.
Yes.
In 1984 a studious re-enactor from Bavaria, but we only met briefly [probably Dieppe event] and I'm sure he doesn't remember me.
He was associated with the 21eme de ligne, out of UK, shshhhhhhhh…!
~d

Dieppe it could be – such a long time ago, but no 21e de ligne then my outfit was 3e de ligne.

Ahh ok, my faulty memory then.
But it was the guys in the 21eme (NA) who introduced you, sorry I got that wrong. Yes I believe there was some covert chat about 'defecting' to your regiment.

I'd stayed with them in London (Chiswick) for a week and then met up on their tour-de-force trip to France after I'd gone back to continue tour and research- September I think in my new Citröen ;-)
regards d

Dieppe was terrible, raining almost continously – and the battle field was very muddy and full of puddles.

That‘s the fate of reenctors wanting to get an experience of former times :-) … I knew to avoid the offers of recruitment; but as I told vW a long time ago when he‘d been a republican soldier I‘d only join as an experienced aristrocrat officer of the old army during the first amalgame period

At least I prefer to read the experiences instead of feeling them.

Sorry for being off-topic … Greetings
Markus Stein

>>At least I prefer to read the experiences instead of feeling them.

A very wise man I am sure Markus.
~d