Tango01 | 18 Jan 2022 4:19 p.m. PST |
"Americans across the country are grappling with the impacts of decades upon decades of systemic racism. Many are turning to resources from academics, researchers and activists to educate themselves on implicit bias — and important events in history they never learned about. One such resource: Historian James W. Loewen's 1995 book Lies My Teacher Told Me. For his book, Lowewn studied 12 different history textbooks used to teach across the country, and found falsehoods and omissions in the story of the country's past. In a new interview, Loewen debunks common U.S. history myths — and tells me why these "lies" are so dangerous…" Main page link Armand
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Stryderg | 18 Jan 2022 4:48 p.m. PST |
Now where did I put that 10 foot pole? |
Bunkermeister | 18 Jan 2022 5:04 p.m. PST |
Tango please stop with this anti-American foolishness. Everyone knows that children are taught age appropriate lessons about every subject. Of course there are omissions in text books. They tell us the most important basic facts, not every sordid detail. Gen. Eisenhower was in charge of the successful Allied landings at Normandy and went on to become president of the United States. Those are the essential facts about him. We don't need to know he had an extra-marital affair with his female driver when we are ten years old. And that is what is going on in many of these articles. They act as if the US must dwell on every flaw, every error, even if it was corrected 100 years ago. Mike Bunkermeister Creek Bunker Talk blog |
OSCS74 | 18 Jan 2022 5:38 p.m. PST |
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Bunkermeister | 18 Jan 2022 5:55 p.m. PST |
Thank you OSCS74 Mike Bunkermeister Creek Bunker Talk blog |
AussieAndy | 18 Jan 2022 5:57 p.m. PST |
Where did the article refer to Eisenhower? I would have thought that most of what the guy is saying in the interview would be pretty uncontroversial by now. My own country still has plenty of issues with its history, but a refusal to engage with historical reality isn't a mainstream approach. Yep, there is plenty of rubbish spouted by the left, but that's no excuse for refusing to engage with anything that might challenge your views. |
doc mcb | 18 Jan 2022 8:16 p.m. PST |
Gag. Most of his points are themselves misleading. Of course Columbus discovered America. If there are two people in the dark, neither aware of the other, and then one of them goes exploring and stumbles over the other, the explorer has DISCOVERED the one who didn't move. Simple enough a child can understand. Boorstin makes the vital point in THE DISCOVERERS: the Vikings etc did not TELL PEOPLE and NOTHING HAPPENED. It is called feedback. Ironic a book claiming to fight bias is so biased. |
doc mcb | 18 Jan 2022 8:32 p.m. PST |
Mostly we're taught that there weren't very many people here, and they kind of roamed. Actually, there were as many people living in the Americas, as there were living in Europe. Folks came in, burning their fields and forcing them to roam. No mention of diseases, which killed more natives than everything else combined. And were unavoidable. |
doc mcb | 18 Jan 2022 8:34 p.m. PST |
The peoples of the Americas had had no contact to European and African diseases and little or no immunity.[18] An epidemic of swine influenza beginning in 1493 killed many of the Taino people inhabiting Caribbean islands. The pre-contact population of the island of Hispanola was probably at least 500,000, but by 1526, fewer than 500 were still alive. Spanish exploitation was part of the cause of the near-extinction of the native people.[19] In 1518, smallpox was first recorded in the Americas and became the deadliest imported European disease. Forty percent of the 200,000 people living in the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan, later Mexico City, are estimated to have died of smallpox in 1520 during the war of the Aztecs with conquistador Hernán Cortés.[20] Epidemics, possibly of smallpox and spread from Central America, decimated the population of the Inca Empire a few years before the arrival of the Spanish.[21] The ravages of European diseases and Spanish exploitation reduced the Mexican population from an estimated 20 million to barely more than a million in the 16th century.[22] The indigenous population of Peru decreased from about 9 million in the pre-Columbian era to 600,000 in 1620.[23] Scholars Nunn and Qian estimate that 80–95 percent of the Native American population died in epidemics within the first 100–150 years following 1492. The deadliest Old World diseases in the Americas were smallpox, measles, whooping cough, chicken pox, bubonic plague, typhus, and malaria.[24] |
Shagnasty | 18 Jan 2022 8:34 p.m. PST |
Big whoop. I taught in Texas and somehow we managed to cover those, admittedly existing, omissions. On the other hand, when we pointed out glaring errors in texts up for adoption, the publishers ignored us. For example, "The Macedonian pike was a fearsome weapon when thrown at the enemy." |
doc mcb | 18 Jan 2022 8:36 p.m. PST |
If every European who got off a boat in America had been like St Francis of Assisi, the diseases would still have killed 80-90% of the native population. Nobody's fault, and unavoidable. |
doc mcb | 18 Jan 2022 8:37 p.m. PST |
Basically, Tango, we are not impressed. Or amused. |
Old Glory | 18 Jan 2022 8:55 p.m. PST |
I went to school in rural "White" Iowa in the 50s and I can -- hand on heart-- say that I was basically aware of all of those topics. They need to throw in that J edger Hoover was a cross dresser and if we are going to be totally fair that Martin Luther King had mistresses all over the place. If we are going to throw dirt then let's throw it? Russ Dunaway |
Grattan54 | 18 Jan 2022 9:01 p.m. PST |
If we had a child and all we did was say negative things to them, "you are bad" "You are stupid" you are "horrible" what would we assume the child would become? Would they be well adjusted? Would they see themselves positively? Have a good life? Yet, we seem to be doing that exactly thing with our teaching of history in the US. All we can do is point out the negatives. Nothing was good. Nothing was right. How long can a nation survive if it hates itself. |
Bunkermeister | 18 Jan 2022 11:55 p.m. PST |
Quite so Grattan54. No nation survives by telling it's children they and their ancestors are evil. Aussie Andy, my reference to Eisenhower was an example of the kinds of things we tell children in school and the kinds of things they don't need to know until they are older, and frankly are not really relevant to their historical significance. Mike Bunkermeister Creek Bunker Talk blog |
nickinsomerset | 19 Jan 2022 2:46 a.m. PST |
It seem that what people dont understand is that if Columbus had not "discovered" America, some one else would have. If the UK had not colonised half the world, someone else would have, and it goes on, Tally Ho! |
Cardinal Ximenez | 19 Jan 2022 6:18 a.m. PST |
Katie Couric 🙄 just another failed media hack striving to regain relevance. |
mildbill | 19 Jan 2022 6:22 a.m. PST |
So, a book written in 1995 is given space and coverage? Smacks of propaganda. I guess we wont bring up the fact that Argentina ran the last concentration camp that gassed Jews post WWII. 10k to 15k killed. |
Cardinal Ximenez | 19 Jan 2022 6:23 a.m. PST |
Katie Couric 🙄 just another liar striving to regain relevance. |
35thOVI | 19 Jan 2022 6:52 a.m. PST |
Remember the mantra of people like this, who write this book, the 1619 project and all the others: "Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated." Well we might not be, but our children and grandchildren will be. |
Texaswalker | 19 Jan 2022 8:52 a.m. PST |
Has there ever been another country which has embarked on such a widespread program of self flagellation as the US? What powerful organization of human beings has not made mistakes, sometimes awful mistakes? Humans are evil, deceitful and cruel, but they are also good, honest and kind. Any organizing principle for humans will have failures. But the US is a place to which people from all over the world want to come, not a place from which they are trying to leave. And it was founded on ideals which, although not always adhered to, are still some of the best in human history. |
35thOVI | 19 Jan 2022 10:26 a.m. PST |
Texas. Short answer is no, none. I doubt the Egyptians, Assyrians, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Mongols, Chinese, Muslims, Ottomans, Spanish, French, British, or anyone else I missed, when they were at their zenith, really cared or soul searched. Nor do I believe any new country that might hit their zenith, Russia, China or other country, would do much soul searching. I know there were some in Britain at their zenith who did, but they were a minority. I am sure someone will pull a name or 2 from elsewhere, but they would be exceptions. Nowhere near the amount from this country and from elsewhere, who do it about the U.S. |
The Virtual Armchair General | 19 Jan 2022 12:24 p.m. PST |
Well said, everybody! TVAG |
Au pas de Charge | 19 Jan 2022 8:30 p.m. PST |
They need to throw in that J edger Hoover was a cross dresser and if we are going to be totally fair that Martin Luther King had mistresses all over the place. I think J Edgar Hoover was involved in more hi-jinx than just cross dressing. I fail to see how MLK's sex life equates with massacres, Jim Crow laws or burning Native American's crops. If we are going to throw dirt then let's throw it? By all means. Maybe you're available to serve as an editor? @Grattan54 If we had a child and all we did was say negative things to them, "you are bad" "You are stupid" you are "horrible" what would we assume the child would become? Would they be well adjusted? Would they see themselves positively? Have a good life? I assume it might have the same effect that this Mississippi HS learning would have on African Americans: Most of them thought it [Reconstruction] was a period when Black people took over the governments of Southern states, but screwed it up, and white people had to take control again. |
Jcfrog | 20 Jan 2022 11:00 a.m. PST |
Deconstructing and criticising all that was done for centuries is easier tgan searching, learning and building. |
Jlundberg | 20 Jan 2022 12:40 p.m. PST |
I co-taught US and world history last year and the focus was entirely on what the author thought was missing. On occasion the primary teacher was out and I covered the material the way I thought it should be done and the kids got much more engaged. Many of us got excited about history due to the stories of courage and nobility in extremis, not sacrifice of luxuries by those on the home front. More time was spent on the racial flaws of the new deal than the war of 1812. I agreed there were some pretty ugly racial discrepancies in the new deal but asked the kids whether African Americans were foolish or misguided when they switched voting allegiance |
Augustus | 20 Jan 2022 5:49 p.m. PST |
Good God! I am tired of this incessant witchhunt. |
Grattan54 | 20 Jan 2022 7:34 p.m. PST |
I have been a professor of history for 35 years and I can tell you that the three BIG things in history to research, publish and teach are Race, Class and Gender. |
Blutarski | 21 Jan 2022 7:27 a.m. PST |
Grattan54 wrote - "I have been a professor of history for 35 years and I can tell you that the three BIG things in history to research, publish and teach are Race, Class and Gender." Rest assured that this multi-decade trend is nothing more than sheer coincidence.
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doc mcb | 21 Jan 2022 8:34 a.m. PST |
Grattan, that is why I'm not teaching much these days (besides health). And why many are contemptuous of the historical profession -- and should be. |
Au pas de Charge | 21 Jan 2022 10:08 a.m. PST |
Has there ever been another country which has embarked on such a widespread program of self flagellation as the US? I always thought it was eminently Christian to confess one's sins, heal and move on as a better person? Any organizing principle for humans will have failures. But the US is a place to which people from all over the world want to come, not a place from which they are trying to leave. That other places are worse, doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement. This is a rationalization for continued abusive behavior. And it was founded on ideals which, although not always adhered to, are still some of the best in human history. And if we work on it, going forward, the country adhere to those ideals. You should be delighted by that prospect. |
Blutarski | 21 Jan 2022 12:54 p.m. PST |
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nickinsomerset | 21 Jan 2022 3:37 p.m. PST |
"I always thought it was eminently Christian to confess one's sins, heal and move on as a better person?" I am not going to confess the sins of a far long gone ancestor because they acted as everyone else did in their time. And where does it end? Do we demand compensation from the Italians because of what the Romans did? Tally Ho! |
doc mcb | 21 Jan 2022 8:05 p.m. PST |
Charge, yes, and some theologians do argue that just as the sinless Christ accepted responsibility for the sins of the world, so His Body the church (far from sinless) should accept responsibility even for sins others commit, as well as (obviously) their own. Nevertheless I think part of forgiveness IS moving on, and that includes, imho, not judging too harshly our ancestors who had very different assumptions about many things. We are ORDERED to forgive, especially when treated unjustly, and that applies to the victims of slavery as much as to anyone. |
Au pas de Charge | 22 Jan 2022 9:28 a.m. PST |
I am not going to confess the sins of a far long gone ancestor because they acted as everyone else did in their time. And where does it end? Texas Walker asked whether other nations examine their behavior as closely. The answer is often "No" but that might be because they are less enlightened. Do we demand compensation from the Italians because of what the Romans did? No but there should be light shed on some of the Propaganda the Romans wrote about their opponents. The British have suffered worse social upheavals than the USA, has it made them weaker or worse? Or has it made them more advanced, more enlightened and better all around as a culture? It can be argued that the Romans are too distant to affect our every day lives but the British Empire is certainly recent enough to pay reparations to all the countries they plundered for centuries.
Charge, yes, and some theologians do argue that just as the sinless Christ accepted responsibility for the sins of the world, so His Body the church (far from sinless) should accept responsibility even for sins others commit, as well as (obviously) their own. Well then, we have our answer, To be in touch with our sins is to become better Christians. And we shouldnt tear down the past, but neither should we sugar coat it. Traditionalists need to be smarter, the best way to preserve our current heroes is to add hitherto unrecognized ones of color and alternate genders. That sort of preemptive move is a better strategy than the stubborn "No retreat, no surrender" tactic which never seems to work.
Nevertheless I think part of forgiveness IS moving on, and that includes, imho, not judging too harshly our ancestors who had very different assumptions about many things. We are ORDERED to forgive, especially when treated unjustly, and that applies to the victims of slavery as much as to anyone. I think we are on the path to that now. We have a tendency to overdo behavior to prove the forbidden is permitted and then things revert to equilibrium. When Mississippi celebrates slaves for building America along with Robert E Lee's birthday, we will be closer to that point. |
doc mcb | 22 Jan 2022 12:05 p.m. PST |
link also link with brief appearances by the McBride brothers |
doc mcb | 22 Jan 2022 12:22 p.m. PST |
Well, that is what i mean in saying that Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman etc are NOT black heroes but American heroes who were black. We can all honor their courage and wisdom, as we can ALL honor such as Robert E. Lee. |
Au pas de Charge | 22 Jan 2022 9:47 p.m. PST |
I liked the video. I dont think it's been black people trying to stay separate for 400+ years. The amount and length of racial exclusion has created a reaction which will eventually subside. In the meantime, Let's see the great state of Mississippi declare a Frederick Douglass day. |
doc mcb | 22 Jan 2022 9:55 p.m. PST |
Yes, I agree the separation has been white doing. Although Phyllis Wheatly is an exception. Societies create the heroes they think they need; Parson Weems' Washington is an example, as is Davy Crockett in a quite different vein. and RE Lee the Marble Man. MLK was made a hero partly because he deserves it but MAINLY, I think, because Americans decided it was time for a black hero. Not sure Miss or any state is going to make a day for someone not a native son or significant in that state's history, though. If you started, where would you stop? I think the key, as others have said, is to stop trying to TAKE AWAY heroes and instead see about INCREASING them. |
Nick Pasha | 24 Jan 2022 3:28 p.m. PST |
I taught history for 28 years in middle and High school. History is the study of events of the past. When did they occur. That question is answered with facts based on written or oral accounts of the events. When we focus on the who, what, where and when of the events we can be fairly accurate. Its when we try to answer why that we can have problems. Why is a matter of opinion. We say the opinion is based on fact but that's not true. Was the civil war about slavery, states rights or economics, or was is about something else or all of the above. Its a matter of opinion and this leads to conflict. Should the conflict be called the civil war, the war of the rebellion, the war of the confederacy or the war of southern succession, or something else. This is a matter of opinion and the differences in opinions can lead to conflict. |
doc mcb | 24 Jan 2022 3:52 p.m. PST |
Hmmm, Nick, yes, but the WHY happens to be the most important part of it. Otherwise, why should we care what happened in the past? History is not a collection of facts; it is a STORY. Stories have plots and points of view and purposes. Of course it is controversial. What do men argue about, asked Plato? Not whether it is raining outside, nor which piece of string is longer; those questions can be answered with observation and measurement. But what is RIGHT and WRONG? How are we to behave when, e.g., "the King with half the East at heel" marches on us? If history can't answer that, to hell with it. |
Blutarski | 24 Jan 2022 5:43 p.m. PST |
History tests (at least in the regime of high school) are easier for teachers to score when the questions require responses of a factual nature - > Who was the first president of the United States? > When was the Constitution ratified? > In what town did Lee surrender to Grant? Questions of a deeper and more involved nature (at least in my time) required deeper and more nuanced responses that were far more challenging to score. > What factors drove Sonny and Cher divorce? …. which makes the instructor's workload much heavier (I would imagine). B
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doc mcb | 24 Jan 2022 6:40 p.m. PST |
Blut, that's right. Of course being able to write clearly and logically is a slightly more important skill than remembering facts until the test. Grading essays is HARD WORK. But if you are not doing that you are not teaching the kids very much. It is quite evident today that many Americans have no idea how to think rationally nor express themselves clearly. I will add that my typical student load in two private high schools was 60-70 among all classes. Public school teachers may have twice that or more. You get what you pay for. |
Au pas de Charge | 25 Jan 2022 6:02 a.m. PST |
… Why is a matter of opinion. We say the opinion is based on fact but that's not true.Was the civil war about slavery, states rights or economics, or was is about something else or all of the above. Its a matter of opinion and this leads to conflict. This isnt a matter of opinion to historians. It's a matter of opinion to those who choose to live in a state of denial (and worse). The war came about because of slavery. About the best that can be said is that the handful of people who decided for war might have invented "tales" to inspire the less influential to go die for them. When the country was young, it might've been important to come up with heroic myths. That and the fact that a very narrow viewpoint held control over all narratives. However, like any other self-justifying stimuli, now that the USA doesn't have to legitimize itself as a deserving member of the community of nations, we can afford to examine our heritage. The stories that withstand scrutiny will stay and those that don't tell the whole story need to be adjusted. |
doc mcb | 25 Jan 2022 7:58 a.m. PST |
You don't think heroic myths are still important today? |
Au pas de Charge | 25 Jan 2022 9:15 a.m. PST |
You don't think heroic myths are still important today? I think they are. If conservatives were smart and didn't want to be viewed as dismissive of non-white contributions, they would hasten to add overlooked heroes. But they don't. I wont even get into the fact that, aside from yourself, few Confederate proponents ever promote black heroes/stories on here. It's always "It's not about race and what's this assault on the white man business?". I pride myself not always in arguing what I believe but also which way the wind is blowing irrespective of what I believe/want. Further, I also believe that when you don't get the story right from the get-go, you open yourself up to revision and, additionally, if something has moral or historical value, it can withstand scrutiny. |
Blutarski | 25 Jan 2022 9:47 a.m. PST |
"If conservatives were smart and didn't want to be viewed as dismissive of non-white contributions, they would hasten to add overlooked heroes. But they don't." Yes we do, and very much so. But it's apparently just intellectually inconvenient for you to accept because it contradicts the propagandized cartoon image of conservatism that so heavily burdens your thinking.
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Blutarski | 25 Jan 2022 9:51 a.m. PST |
Che Guevara s a "heroic myth" that the Left continues to revere and promote to this day. B
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doc mcb | 25 Jan 2022 3:47 p.m. PST |
Quick, without looking, Charge, who was Robert Smalls? |
Khazi Kwarteng | 29 Dec 2022 4:19 p.m. PST |
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