"Snipers?" Topic

Hi just started building some French and German armys and was wondering about the possible frequency of sniper teams. Does one team per company sound about right?

It depends on what point in the War you are representing. I do not know about the French, but the Germans started pretty much neglecting snipers. However, under the pressure of the Russian sniper threat, they ramped things up and by 1944 you could expect one or two sniper trained individuals in a company. It was not a formal structure so numbers varied.

Snipers weren't hugely common in WW2, but as a rule of thumb I usually paint up a couple of figures per infantry company, whatever the nationality. They don't often get used. The observer figures can double up as FOs.

The period does make a difference. 1939-41 a sniper could mean a decent shot in a section or platoon using a standard rifle and probably normal sights. The blokes with face veils, binoculars, and specially selected rifles with optical sights took a bit longer to appear in most armies. Late war Germans had extravagant numbers of scoped rifles authorised, essentially one per squad from late 1943 onwards, though providing the equipment and having marksmen decent enough to make use of it was another matter.

Gary

44 onwards the Australian jungle divisions had one marksmen per section. Best shot in the section was given a scope to attach to his rifle. There were no offical snipers.

I have read the Chinese had sniper training schools sponsored by the USA during the 2nd Sino-Japanese War. Private American companies donated the rifles and equipment.

Never read anything about French snipers so I would be interested in finding out the answer.

I recall reading that German sniping at Normandy proved so irksome and caused so many casualties (especially among commanders of "unbuttoned" tanks) that the sniper issue allegedly percolated all the way up to Bradley's HQ. Bradley is reputed to have ordered (in so many very carefully chosen words) that "no quarter" be shown to any enemy snipers.

B

Snipers would be few … but on a tactical level those few could be useful.

I guess we need to distinguish between somebody that we would describe as a sniper in modern terms – special training, equipment and recognised role – and what those on the receiving end would perceive as sniping. I don't know what that means in terms of number per company or battalion but the accounts of those on the wrong end of the experience may not be a good guide.

One per company sounds like a pretty good baseline to me.

In more modern times, the Bundeswehr had at least one designated "marksman" with a scoped rifle per platoon.

Not sure about other forces.

Any well hidden or camouflaged, enemy soldier that fired on a unit was frequently declared to be a "sniper", which is no doubt a major exaggeration.

In Normandy, virtually any German who fired a rifle in the vague direction of the Allies was declared to be a 'sniper'.

In Normandy, virtually any German who fired a rifle in the vague direction of the Allies was declared to be a 'sniper'.

Yes, now simulate that in a game.

Wolfhag

Today a "sniper" has additional training + some special equipment[even if just a zeroed scope]. In the ROK on the DMZ mission, '84-'85, our Mech Bn had about 4 Snipers. Who were trained as Snipers and had accurized M14s, the M21. With 2 M21s each both with a zeroed day scope & zeroed night scope. There were a number of Sniper qualified Snipers in the Bn. The total number escapes me now. As Inf Companies and Bn Scout Plt rotated thru the operations schedule. The M21s would be issued to the new Co./Plt.'s Snipers.

At Ft. Benning, GA, after I returned from 22 months in the ROK with 2 tours on the DMZ. When I took command of a Mech Co. I'd send a number of my soldiers to the Benning Sniper. Where many service branches send their Snipers to train & get qualified. Just like at the Parachute and Ranger Schools there.

Mech Cos. didn't have M21s unless special issued like in the ROK. But sending soldiers to the Sniper School actually made them better Infantrymen. E.g. Improved fieldcraft, marksmanship, etc.

We hoped if deployed to a combat zone we'd be issued some Sniper rifles & scopes. But otherwise we had Night Vision Scopes for some of our weapons. Again any scope has to be "zeroed" to each individual soldier's weapon.

Lessons of WWI Snipers were generally lost after that war. And in many cases Armies had to relearn those skills when WWII started. Some like the Germans and Russians had trained Snipers from a school.

As opposed to some just having designated "Snipers" with little to no training. IIRC the US ARMY in both WWII & Korea has the old '03 Springfield bolt action with scope.

Today a "sniper" has additional training + some special equipment[even if just a zeroed scope]. In the ROK on the DMZ mission, '84-'85, our Mech Bn had about 4 Snipers. Who were trained as Snipers and had accurized M14s, the M21. With 2 M21s each both with a zeroed day scope & zeroed night scope. There were a number of Sniper qualified Snipers in the Bn. The total number escapes me now. As Inf Companies and Bn Scout Plt rotated thru the operations schedule. The M21s would be issued to the new Co./Plt.'s Snipers.

At Ft. Benning, GA, after I returned from 22 months in the ROK with 2 tours on the DMZ. When I took command of a Mech Co. I'd send a number of my soldiers to the Benning Sniper. Where many service branches send their Snipers to train & get qualified. Just like at the Parachute and Ranger Schools there.

Mech Cos. didn't have M21s unless special issued like in the ROK. But sending soldiers to the Sniper School actually made them better Infantrymen. E.g. Improved fieldcraft, marksmanship, etc.

We hoped if deployed to a combat zone we'd be issued some Sniper rifles & scopes. But otherwise we had Night Vision Scopes for some of our weapons. Again any scope has to be "zeroed" to each individual soldier's weapon.

Lessons of WWI Snipers were generally lost after that war. And in many cases Armies had to relearn those skills when WWII started. Some like the Germans and Russians had trained Snipers from a school.

As opposed to some just having designated "Snipers" with little to no training. IIRC the US ARMY in both WWII & Korea had the old '03 Springfield bolt action with scope, for their Snipers.

IIRC the Marines were using the same Unertl 10x scope with a 1/4 minute dot from WWII through Vietnam. That's what Hathcock mostly used on a Winchester Model 70 or Remington 700. I have one too. I think the Army was using the ART scope on their M21's starting in VN. It's an entirely different science now.

Wolfhag

Yes, I do agree with all that. But for the life of me, I can't remember the day scope we used on our M21s on the DMZ ?

The ART was not a night scope: link

I guess you could call it a stadiametric rangefinder.

Wolfhag

Yes, I know that … It is a pretty good addition to the Infantryman's hardware. But like I said our Snipers had both an M21 zeroed with a day scope, and another M21 zeroed with a night scope.

Go here for some WW1&2 German sniper-scope trivia
link

More trivia – Johann (John) Unertl is reputed to have himself served as a sniper in the Imperial German Army of WW1. Nothing like having a tool designed by someone familiar with your trade.

FWIW.

B

Hello,

for the war in 1939/40 betwen France % the Germans I dont find anything about sniper teams at all. The only thing I remember, was that officers on horses hunt ducks in the no mans land. One day the germans hunt the ducks over to the french side, next time the french riders pushed them to the germans.
After fighting starts, a group of german officers walk out to reconnoit the french, they forget to take their MPs (SMG) & helmets with them.
Sniper teams seems to be no danger, at this time of the war.

Sniper teams seems to be no danger, at this time of the war.

As I said after WWI many lessons learned about snipers were lost/forgotten. But again, based on my study of history, and even training and experience in my long-passed youth as an Infantry Officer … If properly employed Snipers are effective on a tactical level. Later in WWII Snipers Tms again became a useful effective asset for most of the waring forces.

And let's admit … in 1939/40, many armies were fighting the last war and/or reduced their militaries greatly. E.g. the Germans were the only ones in '39/'40 that not only understood but how to use "Blitzkrieg" effectively, i.e. mobile combined arms warfare. The other armies had to play "caught up" in many cases. Allowing the Germans to overrun/control much of Western Europe for at least 2-3 years …

So it does not surprise me the French at that time had not used/deployed Snipers. Along with many other things at that time, hence ending up at Dunkirk.

I have read that the Soviets had designated "Marksmen," in fairly high numbers. (One per platoon -- one per section.) These were not-quite-snipers, issued (if possible) with the semi-automatic rifle, but probably without telescopic sights. The main idea, I think, was just to give the better rifles to the men who could make the best use of them.

Yes, very true … and as we know in a Rifle Plt not all your soldiers are "Expert shots". Hence e.g. the USA Army has three different qualification levels (highest to lowest): expert,
sharpshooter, and marksman. So some are just better shots than other, for any number of reasons. E.g. SGT Alive C. York, Vasili Zaitsev, etc.

Thank you everyone for your help and interesting and educational posts.
Looks like no snipers for either side in 1940 would be the best bet.