MrZorro | 03 Jan 2022 3:49 p.m. PST |
Hi guys, happy new year. I try to start a new wargaming project every year, different eras, different rules, different figure sizes, different message boards on this site =). This year it will be El Alamo in 28mm. I want to tell you exactly what I have in mind and what I ordered already. Then I have a bunch of questions for you all out there who have experience in this subject. I will start by using the figures I ordered for skirmishes in one area of the Alamo only perhaps using some adaptation of Rebels & Patriots until I have more figures. I already purchased today the Bloody Dawn rules (Hope to benefit from the wisdom of the author who is active around here) I also previously had Come And Take It by Mr. Tim Tinsley from a very old The Courier issue. By the way I wonder if these rules might be adapted to a sector of the Alamo only, maybe. I plan to start building the North Wall of the Alamo while my figures arrive, I am considering going 38" approximately and will also do around 20" of the Northeast & Northwest wall sections and rooms to go with the North side. This way creating a North side "rectangle" to start battling on. I am considering making the wall 3 1/2 inches tall from the outside and 3 inches tall from the inside house/room walls. Are these numbers suitable? What do you guys think? This is what I ordered from Old Glory (yes I got my Army discount =): Mexicans TXM03 2xMexican Light Infantry Skirmishing w/Command 60 figs TXM-01 Mexican Infantry Advancing 30 figs TXM 1 Mexican High Command 6 Mounted figs TXM-06 Mexican Riflemen with Command 30 Figs TXT-06 Alamo Defenders 30 Figs TXT-07 Texans Artillery 30 figs TXT-02 Texans Skirmishing 30 Figs TXT-04 New Orleans Greys with Command 30 figs CZG-01 7 pound cannon 2 cannons I also ordered the 28mm Alamo Chapel by Hudson & Allen. Well, this is the theory and the material so far. Any advice is welcome, thanks. Cheers. |
doc mcb | 03 Jan 2022 4:34 p.m. PST |
Let me know how I can help. |
doc mcb | 03 Jan 2022 4:47 p.m. PST |
MZ, I'd suggest first taking a look at the rules for ladder assaults in Bloody Dawn. That's if you do not want to fight each man individually, which I assume not, given the number of figures you've ordered. Defining victory is going to be the challenge when playing an assault on part of the perimeter. |
doc mcb | 03 Jan 2022 4:59 p.m. PST |
If you are playing the north wall to start, you are going to need about three more guns. Iirc the defenders had three in the center bastion and two at the nw corner. I like the H&A chapel. The rest of their model is pretty inaccurate. Do you have the Lemon book with the marvelous model photos ? |
doc mcb | 03 Jan 2022 5:07 p.m. PST |
Lemon, THE ILLUSTRATED ALAMO, is $150 USD at Amazon. Maybe your library can get it? If you are building your own you definitely want it. |
torokchar | 03 Jan 2022 5:24 p.m. PST |
A VERY WORTHY project!! Charlie Torok Lone Star Historical Miniatures (LSHM) club San Antonio Texas |
HMS Exeter | 03 Jan 2022 5:28 p.m. PST |
I've seen plenty of Alamoes (?) played at cons and played in a couple more. While fairly primitive there is an article in one of the oooolderrr Couriers that covers battle rules, including ladders. The rules work well in the assault phase, but they come completely unglued once it gets to be a free for all inside the compound. If you look into that rules set, just know you'll have to reinvent the rules once it's guys fighting in small knots and against Tejanos hole up inside buildings. |
doc mcb | 03 Jan 2022 5:56 p.m. PST |
Yes, I had the same issue with Bloody Dawn. In terms of morale, for example, I see the Mexicans while outside the walls as likely to fall back if hit too hard by the defenders, but once they are inside their determination should go way up. Also, the firing rules may assume (they do in BD) that the texans are better protected, but if the two sides are equally elevated and exposed you need the same shooting rules for both. (I wanted fast action, as opposed to giving the Texans saves against every shot for being in some cover, so simply made Mexican firing ineffective.) If you are doing only part of the perimeter and fewer figures, you will probably want a more granular approach than BLOODY DAWN provides. |
doc mcb | 03 Jan 2022 6:16 p.m. PST |
MrZorro, I can't figure out how to PM you. Send me one, or email docmcbride@comcast.net |
Nashville | 03 Jan 2022 8:05 p.m. PST |
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WarWizard | 04 Jan 2022 4:59 a.m. PST |
Nashville that looks great. Photos of my Alamo "interpretation" are in this thread – in first and second pages: link |
GamesPoet | 04 Jan 2022 7:12 a.m. PST |
Congrats on choosing this project, and go for it! |
MrZorro | 04 Jan 2022 8:55 a.m. PST |
Hello again guys, thanks doc mcb, I will send you an email soon. thanks all of you for your opinions and help offered. I also do not know how to PM here, perhaps somebody can assist us with that procedure. I do not have the Lemon's Illustrated Alamo book, I will check in my local library and see what they have on the Alamo. I will start with the North wall but knowing myself, I know it wont take very long to have the whole Alamo soon enough =). That is a great Alamo Nashville, great pictures. That looks like the Hudson & Allen Alamo Chapel. I would like to know the size of the perimeter and wall. I plan to play mine in a 48" x 72" so my concern is the width and if there would be enough space for the Mexican troops to start away enough from the walls. Also, where can I get appropriate flags for these minis and what bases and size would you recommend for these Old Glory's 28mm figures? I have a ton of OG's WWII but they are 15mm and I based them in U.S. pennies. Cheers! |
doc mcb | 04 Jan 2022 9:15 a.m. PST |
IIrc Boot Hill sells a file with a bunch of Texan and Mexican flags. Basing is tricky. It is tempting to base each figure separately, but you REALLY do not want to do that for the Mexicans. But you DO need individually based figures for a lot of situations like ladder assaults. I think you may need 5" of width and at least 7' of length, if you are doing the whole compound to scale. |
doc mcb | 04 Jan 2022 9:17 a.m. PST |
Boot Hill flags, digital download, 5 pounds link |
doc mcb | 04 Jan 2022 9:28 a.m. PST |
I do not think you will have room enough, in 28mm, to start the attackers any distance from the walls. You'd need a huge table. Even in 15mm the fort comes to within 6" of so of the edge. BLOODY DAWN has the Mexicans placed on the table, very close to the walls, as their initial move, while the Texans roll out of their blankets and man their positions. It seems to be the case, historically, as in the 2004 Alamo flick, thta the attackers got very close before the Texans reacted. Santa Anna's "no artillery, let them sleep while we sneak up on them" seems to have worked pretty well. You HAVE watched the 2004 film several times, I assume? I think it is excellent. John Wayne's is fun but wrong in many many ways. |
Larry Gettysburg Soldiers | 04 Jan 2022 10:29 a.m. PST |
Our "Soldados de Alamo" Rules (version of "Gettysburg Soldiers" Rules) has Order of Battle and a photo map of Gun positions inside the fort. Suitable for 15mm or 25mm. Image from Origins 2014 game:
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MrZorro | 04 Jan 2022 11:16 a.m. PST |
Wow, what an stunning representation of the Alamo Larry GS. looks amazing and with plenty of space in 15mm, =). I guess you are right doc mcb I will need a bigger table. Also when you mention Santa Anna's "no artillery, let them sleep while we sneak up on them" seems to have worked pretty well, it reminds me of some sources that mention that the "obedient and disciplined Mexicans started screaming "Que Viva Santa Anna!!" halfway to the walls waking up everybody anyway. Those boot Hills flags look great. Thanks for the tip. A few weeks back I was browsing their excellent figures but I did not see their flags. |
Larry Gettysburg Soldiers | 04 Jan 2022 11:40 a.m. PST |
I second the endorsement for the Mark Lemon "Illustrated Alamo" book. It is the ultimate source for all things Alamo architecture. Also recommend the Alamo Studies Forum: alamostudies.proboards.com lots of expertise on the subject of Alamo over there. Larry GettysburgSoldiers.com |
doc mcb | 04 Jan 2022 12:19 p.m. PST |
Larry, what is the scale of that beautiful setup? and what is the table size? |
doc mcb | 04 Jan 2022 12:22 p.m. PST |
Yes, the sources do indicate someone started yelling Viva Santa Anna a bit early. To take your chance in the thick of a rush, with firing all about, Is nothing so bad when you've cover to 'and, an' leave an' likin' to shout; But to stand an' be still to the Birken'ead drill is a damn tough bullet to chew," |
Choctaw | 04 Jan 2022 12:35 p.m. PST |
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MrZorro | 04 Jan 2022 1:49 p.m. PST |
I noticed some drawings, books, setups etc depict the northeast houses row with hard (Wood I suppose) roofs and some others illustrate them with soft (Hay I suppose) roofs. Is there a consensus about this? proof? I mean, if it was hay I guess there were no defendants on top of such roofs and perhaps Mexican were not able to access the compound thru that wall, very interesting historically and for wargaming purposes. |
doc mcb | 04 Jan 2022 2:18 p.m. PST |
I think both the Lemon book and the Blue Moon 15mm Alamo depict a number of straw roofs, mainly but not only in the ne corner. No defenders, right, and easily set on fire, but Mexicans climbing onto such a roof could easily break through and drop down into the room below. And any defenders firing up will probably set the hatch afire. Or am I replaying ZULU in my head? Remember that the Mexican army held, and indeed was who fortified, the Alamo, during 1835. Presumably there were officers with Santa Anna who had solid knowledge of its plan and construction and vulnerabilities. |
doc mcb | 04 Jan 2022 2:30 p.m. PST |
In transitioning from the H&A 28 mm Alamo to the 15mm Blue Moon, it struck me that long stretches of the wall had no defensive firing positions. When I play the game now, I treat the bastions like towers in medieval castles, especially given that their artillery can be wheeled around to fire inside. So the Mexicans can get into the compound relatively easily, though tumbling over the wall after climbing the ladders means they are entering with little or no organization. But the Texans can bring them under fire from multiple elevated positions, each typically with several guns and a company of infantry. It makes for a VERY different battle and game. If you start with just the north wall, i think you put a company of defenders each at Fortin de Condale (nw corner, 2 guns, with a good roof just south of it) and Fortin de Teran (center north wall, three guns) and man the rest minimally or not at all. A Mexican capture of one fortin gets immediately blasted by a gun from the other one. |
doc mcb | 04 Jan 2022 2:35 p.m. PST |
It was a "sergeants' battle" as the attackers can have had little control in the dark, and ESPECIALLY little control as individuals penetrate the perimeter. Morale rules are really tricky. And the Texans have only slightly more control, mainly if they are not trying to maneuver. |
Nashville | 04 Jan 2022 5:36 p.m. PST |
texicans on 3/4 inch by 3/4 inch except personalities and officers 1 X 1. == my alamo figure scale is 1 to 1 scale… Mexican 1 inch steel washers -- and use magnetic area bases to stick em on as they move… recycle the Mexicans, Flags … just pull off the internet … size and glue.. link mexican link |
Larry Gettysburg Soldiers | 04 Jan 2022 5:42 p.m. PST |
We apply a scenario rule that the Texian defenders, familiar with the grounds and buildings, may scurry or rout with road movement anywhere inside the Alamo fort. As Mexicans breach the outer walls, this serves the purpose of allowing defenders to outdistance their pursuers as they retreat back toward the Long Barracks and Chapel. doc, that is the Blue Moon 15mm model on a 9'x5' desert terrain mat from The Terrain Guy. |
doc mcb | 04 Jan 2022 5:44 p.m. PST |
Yes, I also recycle Mexican casualties. Actually I use dead counters (printable from back cover of BLOODY DAWN) and remove as casualties only special figures like officers. Victory is based on the Mexican casualties. MrZ, you can print what you need from the cover, but I also have a bunch done I do not need and could mail you. |
doc mcb | 04 Jan 2022 6:48 p.m. PST |
Yes, I have that model too; it is awesome. That extra distance rule is a good one for game play. Otoh my own interpretation is that Texan officers had too little information about the shape of the whole battle to know when to order a fall-back; I suspect that even if Travis had not been killed early on he would have not been able to exert that much control. I've played the Alamo at least a hundred times, over 25 years, and the defenders always wait too long to fall back. And end up dying anyway in the open ground. The biggest decision is when to spike the guns. I require an officer, and then it is still a die roll to find the hammer and nail in the confusion and dark. Once the Mexicans capture a gun and get it turned around inside, the Texan defense collapses very fast. The garrison had two captains of artillery and a number of other ordinance officers, who I presume were assigned as battery commanders. All it takes is one of them getting targeted by the Mexican riflemen . . . |
doc mcb | 04 Jan 2022 7:11 p.m. PST |
This old thread may be helpful: TMP link It is drawn from the list of defenders in THE ALAMO SOURCEBOOK. |
doc mcb | 05 Jan 2022 6:54 a.m. PST |
Here's an old thread about what color trousers the Mexicans wore. TMP link |
doc mcb | 05 Jan 2022 6:58 a.m. PST |
This is a good discussion of the Lemon book. TMP link From a related thread: the author noted that the Mexican army engineers did much of the Alamo fortifications later used by their enemies. According to engineering priciples of the era, a ratio of 6 feet of ramp was needed for every 1 foot of elevation. Thus, they lowered the east wall to 15 feet, giving them the ability to have a ramp fully enclosed within the chapel. The Mexicans expected the main Texian threat to be from the east. Doc adds: in case it isn't clear, that is the east wall/back of the chapel where the three-gun battery is located. |
doc mcb | 05 Jan 2022 7:18 a.m. PST |
Thoughts from an old thread about the 'fall back to a final redoubt" defense: One problem is where to put the final redoubt. The chapel has high walls but also few fighting positions, and no good way to kill attackers who get up under the wall. And the weakest two places -- the low stockade between the chapel and the main gate, and the cattle pen -- are immediately to each side of the chapel. But if the chapel is NOT part of the redoubt, you are conceding the highest point in the compound to the attackers.The main gate area has possibilities with the exterior work, but it isn't very large, won't hold too many men. And once the Mexicans gain part of the wall, they likely get control of some artillery pieces, easy to turn around and use at whatever strongpoints still remain, as you point out. And you sure can't put ALL the guns down inside. The other problem is communication. It is fine for some Texian officer to yell "Fall back!" to prepared 2nd positions -- but how many hear him? If some fall back and others do not, the ones still holding the outer perimeter will get cut off and attacked from both directions. You only have to puncture a balloon in one place for it to collapse. |
Disco Joe | 05 Jan 2022 9:17 a.m. PST |
The Lemon book is exceptional. I bought it years ago at Barnes and Noble but paid a lot less then what Amazon is selling it for. |
doc mcb | 05 Jan 2022 9:25 a.m. PST |
Yep, me too. One consideration -- I thought there was an old thread on this but cannot find it -- is how the Mexicans organized their ladder teams. They had 28 ladders, and were very specific in allocating them to the various assault columns. I assume that each would have been carried and then climbed initially by a team, probably a squad, with a junior NCO in command: a corporal, probably. They would already have worked out who holds it, who climbs, and who stands back a few feet ready to shoot at the texan trying to repulse the climber. How one bases this, and how one uses it in a game, is a key consideration in any set of rules. |
MrZorro | 05 Jan 2022 9:33 a.m. PST |
I think I will base all the figures individually in 25mm metal washes and them place the Mexicans only in groups of 24-28 over magnetized bases so I can use them in large battles and also in smaller skirmish systems. I did that with my French & Russian OG15's Napoleonics with great results. I will post pictures soon. P.S. Does anybody know why Private messaging is not working? |
John Leahy | 05 Jan 2022 2:22 p.m. PST |
M wife bought me the Hudson and Allen Alamo for my Birthday when it first came out. I have only used it for Old West games as my scales I have figs are in 54mm and 1/72 scale. I recently picked up STL files to print out a 1/72 scale Alamo. Not sure if my printer is big enough to do one in 54mm. I already have Bloody Dawn which I plan on trying out. Thanks John |
MrZorro | 07 Jan 2022 7:33 a.m. PST |
Can somebody be so kind and tell me the dimensions of the Hudson & Allen Alamo walls and the chapel. Height and length of the single wall sections and the Chapel because I plan to start cutting some Styrofoam this weekend =) before the figures arrive. Thanks! |
MrZorro | 07 Jan 2022 2:26 p.m. PST |
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doc mcb | 07 Jan 2022 8:26 p.m. PST |
That link goes to tmp home. |
MrZorro | 08 Jan 2022 6:05 a.m. PST |
Yeah, I am trying to remember how to post pictures here. |
MrZorro | 11 Jan 2022 12:26 p.m. PST |
I was getting ready this past weekend to start working on the Alamo but I' ve got mail! I did not count with the extraordinary service of Old Glory and their swift order processing. So, figures will be painted first, just because temptation is so big. Excellent miniatures. By the way, Some of the Mexican army soldiers come with what looks like metal canteens, I have only seen images with them carrying leather ones in a brownish tone. Is this accurate? Should they be painted metal or black? theminiaturespage.com
"TMP link |
MrZorro | 28 Jan 2022 9:02 a.m. PST |
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MrZorro | 21 Feb 2022 6:52 a.m. PST |
I've got in the mail yesterday the Alamo chapel, the South gate and a couple of corners from the Hudson & Allen models thru Vatican's website. They are great looking models but not as historically accurate as hoped. I ll have to do a few tweaks here and there and I also plan to add natural miniature tree logs myself to the terrain. Speaking of logs, can someone help me suggesting how long in inches should I make the Palisade that connects the chapel with the South gate. The famous Davy Crocket palisade with the 4 pounder. I know it somewhat parallel to the Convento, but since I did not have the Convento building yet I do not know how long it is. Thanks for any help & advice. |
MrZorro | 17 Mar 2022 12:40 p.m. PST |
Hi, I downloaded and printed the Boot Hill Flags. They look really nice. I would like to receive advise on what should I use as flag pole for my Old Glory's 25 minis. Shall I use wire? what kind? shall I drill their hands, what size of drill? I have drills but not that slim. P.S. I was surprised to not find the Mexican colors flag with 2 black stars among the Boot Hills flags. |