"Sten machine carbine with bayonet" Topic

Call me a Johnny Foreigner (well, I am), but somehow the WWII British Army never stops surprising me.

I recently obtained a copy of Martin Brayley's wonderful little book "British Web Equipment of The Two World Wars" and was surprised to find a picture of a bayonet frog designed to hold a bayonet for Sten machine carbine. This differed from rifle bayonet frogs in that it could have an attached little pouch for holding the Sten cover plate.

I must admit that this was the first time that I have heard of a bayonet being designed to go with Sten in the first place (though I am aware that the Lancasters in Royal Navy could have a bayonet attached to them). After a little bit of digging, I found a picture of the actual bayonet at the Imperial War Museum website:

link

This seems rather similar in design to the simple spike-like No. 4 bayonet designed for SMLE rifle. The lenght of the spike extending beyond the socket is given as 204 mm.

I encountered also a website specialising in bayonets that provides a few more pictures, and gives an estimate that "75,280 bayonets were believed produced during 1943–1944".

link

I am quite sure I have never seen any period pictures of a bayonet fixed to a Sten, though considering the rather slender nature of the bayonet such a detail might not always be easily visible. With a bit of image searching, I found this photo which quite clearly shows the bayonet against a good background:

Gaming-wise, should the presence of such an item (if available and attached to the gun) have any effect? Some skirmish games provide a bonus in close combat for troops armed with a rifle mounting a bayonet. However, the Sten is significantly shorter than a rifle, and with such short bayonet attached would be limited in reach – though having one rammed through your stomach would still be a highly uncomfortable experience. So perhaps a reduced close combat bonus compared to a rifle might be in question.

They may have been also moderately useful for prodding mines (if you really needed to do so), but that is a time-consuming activity not encountered too often on the tabletop.

Modelling-wise, depicting the bayonet on models might be rather tricky due to the slender dimensions, though on sufficiently large models gluing a piece of strong but thin steel rod to the side of the barrel might just about work. Otherwise, it would be simpler to simply model the bayonet in the scabbard attached to the frog.

Another issue related to Sten accessories I encountered in Brayley's book is that apparently the British Army never issued a dedicated Sten magazine pouch that could be directly attached to the pattern 37 webbing. Instead, the ever versatile basic pouches, attached to the front of the webbing, were simply lenghtened slightly so that Sten magazines could fit inside – though with no internal compartmentalisation added to hold the magazines in place. Alternatively, one could hope to be issued with the separate Sten magazine bandoleer, which had separate pockets for the individual magazines. However, RAF issued dedicated Sten magazine pouches (holding three magazines in their own compartments, plus a loading tool in its own pouch) that could be mounted on the webbing like basic pouches. These were apparently based on the Royal Navy pouches deisgned to hold the longer Lancaster magazines.

Ian D Skennerton & Robert Richardson's "British & Commonwealth Bayonets" (Ian Skennerton, Margate, Australia, 1986) says "few of the Sten bayonets seem to have been issued and it appears that most of the bayonets were scrapped in Birmingham after the war, which makes this a relatively scarce model".

Collectors beware – as the link in Griefbringer's piece notes they were manufactured in bulk in India in the 1980s.

The Sten Mark V could take bayonets Nos. 4, 7 and 9.

In gaming terms I wouldn't bother unless in a rpg a character wanted to use a bayonet instead of shooting (my memory is that the Royal Navy needed the Lanchester to have a bayonet fitting because boarding and landing parties would be in situations where a burst of automatic fire might be over reacting).

On pouches, it makes sense to me to minimise the number of types in issue, and a dedicated Sten pouch would not have been able to carry magazines for the Bren gun, a bandolier of .303" chargers or a hand grenade.

The Sten magazine bandolier is a rarity, and as Brayley notes on page 33 "… is generally associated with Airborne troops".

And on pages 43 and 44 Brayley says that the Royal Navy modified Lanchester pouches to fit Sten magazines with a photo on page 44.

As to the pouch,,,the universal pouch was,,,wait for it,,,universal.

Spike bayonets were sometime good for prodding especially on the end of wooden stakes.

There were massive numbers of spike bayonets produced in the UK, Canada and the US during the war. Pstwar massive numbers were built by India, Pakistan and even South Africa.

Even the 1950s era Sterling or C1 in Canuckistan had the bayonet for the FN fit on it!

I found this photo which quite clearly shows the bayonet against a good background:

Apparently TMP does not like to show the picture for some reason, though you can find it on this website:

link

my memory is that the Royal Navy needed the Lanchester to have a bayonet fitting because boarding and landing parties would be in situations where a burst of automatic fire might be over reacting

Lanchester was designed to fit the older, longer sword bayonet and when so equipped certainly makes for an intimidating sight! If you are guarding prisoners, that kind of look can probably be very useful in convincing them not to try anything stupid (so you don't need to employ the 50 extra arguments held in the magazine).

On pouches, it makes sense to me to minimise the number of types in issue, and a dedicated Sten pouch would not have been able to carry magazines for the Bren gun, a bandolier of .303" chargers or a hand grenade.

Logistically, that seems to make sense, though the Brits do not seem to have been particularly in minimising the number of items produced and issued. Having the three services all making their own choices of equipment, and maintaining a small industry dedicated to producing private purchase officer-only items does not exactly add to production efficiency.

That said, in most units Sten guns were mainly issued to leaders, orderlies, drivers and other personnel who would be mainly occupied by other tasks than pouring hot lead at the enemy. Exception might be the airborne battalions, which were issued with significant numbers of Sten guns – when issued to ordinary riflemen as substitutes for SMLEs providing dedicated bandoliers could be beneficial.

Spike bayonets were sometime good for prodding especially on the end of wooden stakes.

Apparently the late model entrenching tool handle was modfied so that it could fit in a bayonet for a bit of mine-prodding. Only issued in limited numbers in late war, and limited in length, though saves you the effort of finding a suitable piece of wood when needed.

Regarding dedicated magazine pouches with internal compartments for holding single magazines, they are certainly quite limited in what you can fit in. Though while actually in combat, you probably want to have a full magazine in every compartment.

That said, in peaceful exercises in modern times, empty magazine compartments can be quite handy for stocking a few candy bars – preferably ones that can survive a bit of harsh treatment during the exercise.

My understanding is that back in the WWII days, modern candy bars were not a common sight, with the exception of US military (and according to some anecdotes, they would have been a more common sight in the rear echelons than in the front lines).

Couldn't remember the sticks were handles.

Warlord British Airborne set has a number of Stens with and without bayonet.

Sten bayonets were pretty rare, but as noted above, useful for mine prodding etc.

The Mk III pouch was indeed slightly short, but it is certainly possible to get four Sten mags into one as I've done it on a number of occasions. The webbing has a certain amount of give in it. The other one is reserved for Bren mags. The main problem with stuffing a load of Sten mags in the pouch is that there isn't any room for any grenades in it then.

Wrt "candy bars", the ration chocolate bar was supposedly carried in the top left pocket of the Battle dress tunic. Ration boiled sweets in a handy pocket.

Bayonet useful for intimidation or 'prodding' of POWs or 'Crowd Control'. Use would remind that weapon also had ammo if needed.

Warlord British Airborne set has a number of Stens with and without bayonet.

Thanks for the info, I was not aware of that. Taking a look at the sprue pic, there indeed seems to be two Stens with spike bayonets and two SMLEs with spike bayonets, plus various bayonet-free versions. Would these be sturdy enough to survive actual gaming use and transport?

I presume that the paras – known for certain amount of aggressiveness – would be more likely to be issued (and actually use) Sten bayonets than e.g. motorcycle orderlies or lorry drivers.

The Mk III pouch was indeed slightly short, but it is certainly possible to get four Sten mags into one as I've done it on a number of occasions. The webbing has a certain amount of give in it.

Wasn't the nominal ammo load for Sten-armed section leader five magazines? With one mounted on the gun, the remaining four would occupy one baisc pouch, leaving the second for other items.

@Griefbringer-- those bayonets in my Bolt Action para platoon have survived several encounters, and they do serve to identify the officers a/o NCOs.

Good to know, I will keep that in mind if I ever need Sten-armed figures with bayonets attached. Plastic bayonets tend to have a better chance of survival in use than metal bayonets of identical dimensions.

I also like the idea of using bayonets (or lack of them) to indicate squad leaders – that idea might work for a number of other different forces (and conflicts).