"Régiment de Bretagne (46e Regiment d'infanterie de ligne)" Topic

Hello everyone,

I am in need of some help with uniform details about the Régiment de Bretagne from 1787-1791. I am researching a Napoleonic officer who enlisted as a chasseur in the regiment in 1787.

So far, I have found some conflicting uniform details. This website link seems to have a great deal of information, but conflicts with a picture from Hoffman showing the 46e Ligne uniform later in 1792

I appreciate the help in advance.

Michael

hi mike,
Firstly, probably no need for me to comment, but the source site? Copybook regimental history with add-ons I'd say that are not accurate beyond the format they were created for.
The 'sources' are not official, nor French!

Secondly, don't know if 'Hoffman' suffers from copyist 'recolouring' as engravings like Martinet do, but again I'd beware. I'll look into Guide Malibran later after dawn comes as I recall sometimes he's listed accurate aspects of uniform specifically for limited situations.

Sometimes the simplest places have information, like Funckens (I know there goes my cred, if any), but I don't have their 18thC versions.

Of course, in a way of offering something, you have a 'VIP' denoted in the regiment, and in uniform, a copy [1835] of another original so it was happening 175 years ago anyway…

Louis-Charles-Antoine Desaix en uniforme de capitaine au 46e régiment de ligne en 1792 (1768-1800)

link

Main Page: link

cheers d≠

Dave,

Great find! I must admit the early white uniforms I know next to nothing about. Aldo, with Hoffman is that black or dark blue? I am colorblind to black, dark green, and dark blue. For me they all look the same.

Chasseur companies wore small green epaulets correct?

in 1791 there were no chasseurs in the line units.

The facing colour should be light bleu, bleue celeste, as in their time the light blue wasn't as bright as of todays understanding.

Bear in mind in case you look for an officer of 1787 – one would have to consult the 1786 regulations

1786 regulations
1791 regulations
1792 regulations

von W,

The officer of the 7e Leger that I am researching served in the regiment in 1787-1791 when he deserted, and the company rolls show he was in the chasseur company.

I shall take a look at the 1786 regulations! Here are three by Rousselot, and it shows a chasseur.

Thank you

AFAIK according to the reglement of 1791 the line battalions consisted of 8 fusilier and 1 grenadier company; so no chasseur companies anymore.
link

The last organisational change prior to the French Revolution was the Ordinance of 26 March 1776. Regiments were reorganised so that each of the 2 battalions had 5 companies- the 1st battalion had1 grenadier comapny & 4 fuslier companies; the 2nd battalion had 1 chasseur compoany & 4 fusilier comapnies. The chasseur companies comning from various legions of light troops that were dissolved at that time.

All companies had:
1 x premier capitain
1 x deuxieme capitain
1 x premier lieutenant
1 x deuxieme lieutenant
2 x sous-lieutenants
1 x sergeant-major
1 x Fourrier
5 x sergeants (4 in the grenadier company)
10 x corporals (8 in the grenadier company)
1 x cadet gentilhomme (gentleman cadet)
2 x drummers or other instrumentalists
1 x frater (soldier barber who also acted as surgeon)

In addition a Grenadier company had 81 grenadiers, whereas a fusilier or chasseur company had 144 fusiliers or chasseurs.

On 22 May 17881 the cadet gentilhomme was done away with and a third sous-lieutenant post was added to the first two companies of the regiment.

12th July 1784 ordinance reduced fusilier company strengths to 119 men in peace and raised to 170 men in times of war.
Chasseur and Grenadier companies were reduced to 6 officers and 96 soldiers. All musicians became drummers.

The Regulation of 1 January 1791 changed the organisation for each battalion to 1 grenadier & 8 fusilier companies.

.

Johannes55,

Thank you for that link! Very helpful and I will need to spend some time reading everything.

Here is a picture from the 46e Ligne regiment rolls for 1 January 1787 showing Chasseur company under the command of Bimard. So he would have served in the 2nd Battalion of the regiment prior to 1791.

Marbots, thanks, looks interesting.
But that organisation, as PvO also showed above, was changed in/during 1791.
And indeed, he would have served in the second battalion.
What effect the reorganisation of 1791 had is not clear to me. The companies were much smaller and how he transferred from chasseur company to another company?

Johannes55,

It lacks any detail other than when he joined, what company he served, and when he deserted. It seems men who served longer and were Ncos tend to have more service details. He joined in 1792 the Legion de Moselle, which was transferred into the 7e Legere.

Hello Mike,
I wouldn't be too dogmatic about disposition of 1791.
Those regiments that bore second battalions where PoE correctly cites, the 'second' elite company existed as chasseurs (call them sharpshooters if you wish) can't have been re-equipped immediately and the chasseurs changed out for grenadiers.

It was a period of much confusion and complexity that hasn't changed much, however as more and more research appears we can be thankful.

vW has covered the colours well that I see.
Sorry I didn't get a chance to review Malibran yet. I'm pretty sure Bucquoy also has some data,
cheers d

"He joined in 1792 the Legion de Moselle, which was transferred into the 7e Legere"

The Légion de Kellermann ("Légion de la Moselle" from 23 April 1793) was formed for the armée de la Moselle at Metz per the Loi of 28 May 1792, with 18 companies of infantery in 2 battalions. The 1er bataillon entered into campaign in late July 1792. On 25 February 1794, at Birkem, the 1er bataillon passed by amalgamation to the 10e demi-brigade légère de 1ere formation, which later bacame the 20e demi-brigade légère and then 20e régiment d'infanterie légère. The 2e (dépôt) bataillon de la Légion de la Moselle passed by amalgamation on 19 June 1794 at Figuières to the 8e demi-brigade légère de 1ere formation, which later passed to the 4e demi-brigade légère which became the 4e régiment d'infanterie légère.

The 7e demi-brigade légère which became the 7e régiment d'infanterie légère had these antecedents :
- la 20e demi-brigade légère de première formation
---- le 20e bataillon de chasseurs (le ex- bataillon des fédérés de Marsaille)
---- 6 compagnies du 3e bataillon bis de Paris pour la Vendée
---- le 9e bataillon de Haute-Garonne
---- le 10e bataillon de Haute-Garonne
- la demi-brigade des Aurois
---- le 3e bataillon des chasseurs de la Neste dans le Midi
---- le bataillon de chasseurs des Aurois dans le Midi
---- le bataillon de piquiers de la Réole en Gironde
- la demi-brigade de la Sarthe
---- le 5e bataillon des Basses-Pyrénées
---- le 4e bataillon des Hautes-Pyrénées
---- 2e bataillon de la Sarthe
- le 1er bataillon de la demi-brigade du Jura et de l'Hérault (le ex- 2e bataillon du Jura)
- le 2e bataillon du Panthéon à Paris
- le 1er bataillon de Saint-Amand du Nord
- le bataillon de Jemmapes

Possibly, your man individually transferred. Could you name the man you are researching ?

///

great information, yes the structure changed in 1791 – before that yes, a chasseur company did exist – like Prince of Essling pointed out.

In case for 1787 you go then along with the 1796 regulation, 46e then did have bleu de roi as distinction, which would be dark blue.

Thanks Michman for all this valuable information.

Michman,

As much as I would love to give his name, I am doing a report that I will post before Christmas on this officer and share all the information I have found. It is nothing crazy, but he has an interesting story.

Your information is great and very useful. His service record in the 2YB folders, says he was part of the 20e Legere, but no mention of when that regiment joined 7e Leger. Here is a portion of the 2YB folder.

This is taken from the regimental history.

"La 7. demi – brigade d'infanterie légère de 2º formation fut formée le 22 décembre 1796 ( 1er nivose an IV ) de l'ancienne 20 légère (laquelle provenait du 20 * bataillon de chasseurs) dans lequel avait été incorporé le 3e bataillon des volontaires de Paris pour la Vendée) , des ge et 10e bataillons de volon taires de la Gironde , de l'ancienne demi – brigade des Aurois ( celle – ci provenait du 3e bataillon des chasseurs de la Neste , des chasseurs des Aurois et des piquiers de la Réole ) , du 1er bataillon de la demi – brigade du Jura et de l'Hérault (provenant des 2 ° et go bataillons de volontaires du Jura ) , du 3. bataillon de volontaires de l'Hérault , de l'an cienne demi – brigade de la Sarthe (laquelle provenait du 4 • bataillon des volontaires des Basses – Pyrénées , du 4 • ba .. taillon des volontaires des Hautes – Pyrénées et du 2e batail lon des volontaires de la Sarthe) , du 2e bataillon des vo lontaires du Panthéon , du 1er bataillon des volontaires de Saint – Amand (Nord) et du bataillon de Jemmapes .

Below is his service record in his Base Leonore file.

"entrés dans la légion de la Moselle comme soldat, laquelle fait maintenant partie of the 7e Regiment d'infanterie Legere 24 Aout 1792"

roughly translated as entered the Legion of the Moselle as a soldier, which is now part of the 7th Infantry Regiment Legere 24 August 1792

Le réglement sur l'habillement du 21 février 1779 applied a series of distinctive colors to most regiments of French infantry : 10 colors in 6 series. The seventh series was cramiosi / crimson. Le réglement sur l'habillement du 1er octobre 1786 left the series unchanged. For the compagnie de chasseurs, green epaulettes and a green houpe de chapeau were specified.

The régiment de Bretagne-infanterie had No. 47 in the period 1779-1790. I would give their uniform as : habit blanc, collet blanc, revers blancs liserés cramoisi, parements cramoisi, retroussis blancs, boutons jaunes, poches en travers.

drapeau d'ordonnance (2e bataillon) – « aurores & noirs par opposition, & croix blanches semées d'hermines noires – la devise : Potius mori quam foedari »
link

From le loi (de l'Assemblée nationale) sur l'habillement du 1er novembre 1789 and the ordonnance du Roi du 1 décembre 1789, beginning 1 January 1791 a new uniform regulation would apply, established by the réglement sur l'habillement du 1er avril 1791. I would give the regulation uniform for the 46e régiment d'infanterie (ci-devant Bretagne) as : habit blanc, pouches en long, boutons blancs, les collet, revers et pattes de parements bleu-céleste. But I take the view that bleu-céleste in the era was a rather dark shade when new. Perhaps something like :

I just checked Nr. 46 by number and not by name, as said Nr. 46 would have dark blue facings in 1786, but as Michman correctly says, in case Bretagne was Nr. 47 – is was crimson.

So Bretagne was Nr. 47 in 1786 – crimson facings, changed to Nr. 46 in 1791 – to bleu céleste

The image you posted said :
"Soldat dans la légion de la Moselle qui fait actuellement partie de la 20e légère le 24 août 1792."
Which I translate as :
"Soldier in the Legion of the Moselle, which was made by now part of the 20th Light, from 24 August 1792".
Which I interpret to mean that this text was written after the creation of the 20e demi-brigade légère de la 2e formation on 21 April 1796 (2 floréal IV), as the image also shows events in l'An V.

The unit which became pert of the 7e demi-brigade légère de la 2e formation was the 20e demi-brigade légère de la 1ere formation, wich existed from 16 July 1794 to 22 December 1796.

However, on 24 Sepiember 1803, with the creation of the 7e régiment d'infanterie légère, *both* the 7e demi-brigade légère de la 2e formation and the 20e demi-brigade légère de la 2e formation were combined. This is how your man, P.J.H., entered the 7e léger.

So we have ….
24 August 1792 : entered the 1er bataillon de la Légion de Kellermann
23 April 1793 : unit was renamed Légion de la Moselle
25 February 1794 : passed by amalgamation to the 10e demi-brigade légère de 1ere formation
21 April 1796 : unit was renamed 20e demi-brigade légère de la 2e formation
24 Sepiember 1803 : passed by amalgamation to the 7e régiment d'infanterie légère

P.S. – I did find him, but will not name him out of respect for your request for confidentialty.

Just to re cap

He was in 1787 – in 46e de ligne – see the original document – this was not régiment de Bretagne then but

de la Couronne – and that regiment had bleu du roi

Michman,

I appreciate your help and time! You are correct on his name as well! Do you, by chance, have his facial features and hair color?

Also, what are you using to find this officer? I have 2YB, XB, Base Leonore records, but lack tools to help find men earlier in their careers.

Below is a picture of the front page of the 2YB552 file

Von W,

I found him in the 46e Regiment d'infanterie de Bretagne files at memoirsdeshommes website. I believe this is why I stayed out of the early period as it is way too confusing on all the different units being created and merged together.

link

confusing indeed, according to my sources, Malibran, cave a secondary source, Nr. 46 was not called de Bretagne in 1786, but maybe they changed the name earlier than 1791.

how can I search in this web side to see de la Couronne???

von W,

Here is the main page that allows you to search all infantry, cavalry, and artillery of the ancien régime, guard infantry and cavalry as well as Ligne infantry of the Napoleonic Wars. Use the tab on the right called Arme to search and then press on the two sheets of paper in blue to see a full list. link

Here is the full list of ancien régime army link

and de la Couronne as the 45e Ligne volume 1 link

Thank you, to add to complication is that those documents are of 1792 for which the numbers and names are correct – but the registre is back dating fo 1787 when the number and name of the regiments were different to 1792.

but the registre is back dating fo 1787 "
Our subject's LdH état de service has him in the compagnie du capitaine Bimard from June 1787 through October 1791.
This would be le marquis Alexandre de Bimard (La-Bâtie-Montsaléon, Hautes-Alpes 1752 – 1828 Veynes, Hautes-Alpes).

État-militaire ….
1793 : 46e ● Ci-devant Bretagne, premier Bataillon à l'Armée de Custine, second à Shélstat : capitaine de Bimard not shown
1792 : 46e ● Ci-devant Bretagne, à Huningue : capitaine de Bimard shown as the 3rd most senior capitaine commandant, chevalier de Saint-Louis, date of rank 8 August 1780
1791 : 46e ● Ci-devant Bretagne, à Strasbourg : capitaine de Bimard shown as the 4th most senior capitaine commandant, chevalier de Saint-Louis, date of rank 8 August 1780
1790 : 47 ● BRETAGNE, à Huningue : capitaine de Bimard commandant la compagine de chasseurs du 2e bataillon
1789 : 47 ● BRETAGNE, à Thionville : capitaine de Bimard commandant la compagine de chasseurs du 2e bataillon
1788 : XLVII. BRETAGNE, à Thionville : capitaine de Bimard commandant la compagine de chasseurs du 2e bataillon
1787 : XLVII. BRETAGNE, à Briançon : capitaine Bimard commandant la compagine de chasseurs du 2e bataillon
1786 : XLVII. BRETAGNE, à Briançon
1785 : XLVII. BRETAGNE, à Briançon
1784 : XLVII. BRETAGNE, à Grenoble
1783 : XLVII. BRETAGNE, au Camp de S. Roch
1782 : XLVII. BRETAGNE, à Minorque
1781 : XLVII. BRETAGNE, à Metz
1780 : XLVII. BRETAGNE, à Dunkerque
1779 : XLVII. BRETAGNE, à Dunkerque
1778 : XLVII. BRETAGNE, à Givet & Charlemont
1777 : XLVII. BRETAGNE, à Gravelines
1776 : XXXVI. BRETAGNE, à Cambray
1775 : XXXIX. BRETAGNE, à Cambray
1773 : XXXIX. BRETAGNE, à La Rochelle

What happened in 1790 (?), that the régiment Bretagne was stepping down a number ?

Found it: The Régiment du Roi (no. 23) was dissolved by a decree of 7 December 1790:

link

Michman,

Could you either contact me at Boomerlc23 @ gmail. com so I can properly cite your great information or let me know here where you found the information from below.

24 August 1792 : entered the 1er bataillon de la Légion de Kellermann
23 April 1793 : unit was renamed Légion de la Moselle
25 February 1794 : passed by amalgamation to the 10e demi-brigade légère de 1ere formation
21 April 1796 : unit was renamed 20e demi-brigade légère de la 2e formation
24 Sepiember 1803 : passed by amalgamation to the 7e régiment d'infanterie légère

I appreciate your help.
Michael

I only did a quick look in the typical "generalist" sources.You might want to confirm by finding more specialized studies.
Belhomme, for example, seems to fuse the Légions du Centre & de la Moselle into a 4 battalion formation, unlike other sources. Or another example, the fusion of the 20e & 7e léger seems to have been with the decree making demi-brigades into regiments on 24 September 1803. But I could only confirm it was after mid September and before mid October 1803.
I really didn't see the need to chase all the "little issues" because your man's actual experience is listed in his LdH dossier.

24 August 1792 : from the LdH état de service and your posted image
it is 1er bataillon because he ends up in the 7e léger without any notice of transfers in his LdH file
also : Etat Militaire …. An X, XI, XII, XIII

23 April 1793 : Historique du 95e régiment d'infanterie de ligne …. by É. Bloch (1888) page 110
also : link
also : Etat Militaire 1793

25 February 1794 & 21 April 1796 : Histoire de l'infanterie en France …. Belhomme (1893-1902) – Tome 4
also : link & link
also : Histoire de l'ancienne infanterie française …. L. Susane (1846)

24 September 1803 : Décret du 1er vendémiaire an XII
also : Historique du 82e régiment d'infanterie de ligne …. P. Arvers (1886) pages 181-182

According to Didier Davin article posted by M.Berjaud link :

En Janvier 1803, les 1er et 2ème bataillons vinrent à Toulon. En Mars, l'unité passa dans la 7e Division Militaire à Romans et Valence Correspondance générale, t.4, lettre 7533).

En Juin 1803, la 7e DB légère fut appelé au camp de Bayonne, en vue d'une opération contre le Portugal.

Le 14 août 1803 (26 thermidor an 11), Bonaparte écrit depuis Saint-Cloud au Général Berthier, Ministre de la Guerre : "… Donnez ordre … À la 7e légère qui est à Romans de compléter son 1er bataillon à 700 hommes et de le faire partir pour le camp de Bayonne …" (Chuquet A. : « Ordres et apostilles de Napoléon, 1799-1815 », Paris, 1911, t.1, lettre 585 ; Correspondance générale, t.4, lettre 7931).

Elle devint 7e régiment d'infanterie légère en Septembre, passa à quatre bataillons par versement de la 20e DB légère qui avait été dissoute et le chef de brigade fut désormais appelé colonel.

I cant see any sense in the Digby Smith book where he cites the 7eme becoming the 20eme in 1796, but then fails to cite any history.

regards

Hmmm …. yes, M. Davin found the same as I did : the 20e db légère 2e formation's "versement" into the 7e léger took place at about the same time as the decree changing db's to régiments and chefs de brigade to colonels : 24 September 1803.

As noted above, the 20e db légere 2e formation was created by re-naming the 10e db légere 1ere formation (21 April 1796).

The 7e db légere 2e formation was made up by that long list of prior formaiotns noted above, headed the 20e db légère de 1ere formation from 22 December 1796, taking garrison in the Piedmont region. I do not have any book by Digby Smith – but from your reference, it would appear that he has this reversed,

I'm sure the 'dissolution' of under strength or poorly led demi-brigades was occuring on a reasonably sustained basis, and proximity to the 'great event' of Empirical regurgitation of the 'Regiments' nomenclature, is purely coincidental.

What remains perplexing is WHY such units [numbered values] remained 'outside' the usage system entirely?
In such an ordered and orderly army and structure, it makes absolutely no sense to me.

Further on the 7emeL; given it was taken by Bonaparte in 1798, a battalion garrisoned Malta, later [1802] was ordained for Santo Domingo but was 'reprieved' and instead joined the army at Brest; and garrisoned in Nice as a ready force where parts of it undertook actions against anti-government brigands and 'coalitionists'. They incorporated local units and recruited here.

Quite a mixed and varied deployment.
regards dave

Many thanks to you all for this thread, with deep admiration for the wealth of info it contains.

Sorry to double post, but since many of the members here provided information, this is Capitaine Pierre-Julien Hamon and his wounds received during his career.

Thank you again for the help. I am thankful for this community and the wealth of information people are willing to share.

Michael