"Hohenlinden another terrible obscure battle" Topic

because it decided the 1800 campaign and was won by Moreau, and not by the Boney git.

It's given fair billing in James Arnold's book on both battles and was covered first on this link:
link
To be fair it's being beaten in both theatres that really leaves the Austrians little choice but to sue for peace.

Hmmm …. obscure in which circles? Amongst military historians its not obscure. And for the wider population I'd say any battle of the period other than Waterloo or Borodino would be obscure.

True. Bonaparte was not there.
Could I ask why you make this post? Is it because there is so much historical focus on the Napoleonic campaigns that the earlier ones when the republic was threatened are comparatively unknown? Apologies if I am missing something.

Great fun to wargame, esp. at conventions with troops entering from seemingly all directions and may not arrive on time. The Austrians start on the attack, the Bavarians plan to do no more than the minimum and bold Ney flays around. Most players at conventions dont know the tactical situation so tabletop surprises happen almost every turn. Be sure that the Austrian commander is a very good player and a real good sport.

3rd of December 1800

Famous enough to have a poem written about it

>>. obscure in which circles? Amongst military historians its not obscure.

3rd of December 1800

Frankly the very often one line entry given to it in literature means it is, otherwise in specific books, very obscure.
And the 'battle' wasn't the end game either, and that drive recedes even further down the dark tunnel of supression.

It was effectively nullified and buried by propaganda and the white boyz of the '60s-'80s kept it that way…
with minor exceptions.

cheers d
**Happily recreating a small '1800' force adjacent to my 1805 lads___
Don't leave me out ::: TMP link

It's sure one of the battles I've read less about. With that said, is there any special recommended book covering the battle?

please check out the TMP link SHat 1984 mentions in this posting, there you will find some suggestions.

Some overview books to get started ….

Hohenlinden 1800 : die vergessene Schlacht
Günther Schneider (1955 – )
Potsdam : Kurt Vowinckel-Verlag, 2000
151 pages + 2 folded maps ; ill, some color ; 28 cm.

Marengo and Hohenlinden : Napoleon's rise to power
James R. Arnold (1952- )
Barnsley, South Yorkshire : Pen & Sword, 2005
new edition ; x+301 pages ; ill., maps, portraits ; 24 cm

"Die Schlacht zu Hohenlinden in Baiern, im Jahre 1800 den 3ten Dec. …."
Europäische Annalenm Jahre 1801
Ernst Ludwig Posselt (1763-1804)
Tübingen u. Stuttgart : Cotta'schen Buchhandlung, 1801
128 pages ; 22 cm

1800 Marengo and Hohenlinden
Col. George Armand Furse (1834-1906)
London : W. Clowes, 1903
viii+478 pages ; ill., portrait, maps ; 22 cm

Die Schlacht bei Hohenlinden am 3. Dezember 1800 und die vorausgegangenen Heeresbewegungen
Anton Schleifer (?-?)
Erding u. München : Verlag Josef Hauser, 1897
new edition ; vii+48+Anlage(15) pages ; map in color ; in 8°

Der Feldzug von 1800 in Deutschland : mit besonderer Bezugnahme auf den Anteil der bayerischen Truppen bearbeitet
Generallieutenant z. D. Ritter Johann von Heilmann (1825-1888)
Berlin : R. Wilhelmi, 1886
132 pages ; in 8°

Bataille De Hohenlinden Livrée le (12 Frimaire an 1X.) 3 Décembre 1800
Dépôt Général de la Guerre
Paris : Piquet, 1829
3 planches et movements

Hohenlinden
Ernest Picard (1863-1913)
Paris : H. Charles-Lavauzelle, 1909

How was Hohenlinden an 'obscure' battle?

Perhaps Hohenlinden is not 'well-known' as Moreau would later be exiled and then turn against the French and aid the allies…

In this thread: "Why don't people read more about Hohenlinden"?

Also in this thread: "Here's a handy article in a German book from 1801 where you can read about it".

Ok, snark aside, but it doesn't seem like there's that many modern book written about it in English or when it's overshadowed by Marengo. But same goes for Auerstadt, the only book I have that covers it in some more detail is actually a book about Jena….

"Here's a handy article in a German book from 1801 where you can read about it".

Free on Google books
link

If you don't have German, use the little gear to convert to plain text.
(There are also specialty apps for optical character recognition of old German – the little gear allows download in .pdf for this.)

Copy/paste the plain text into Google translate :
link

OK …. it is a bit of a pain (not "handy" at all) and not perfect …. but it is free

Also free *, and in English :
1800 Marengo and Hohenlinden
Col. George Armand Furse
From a US IP address * (I am not sure it is permitted here to tell how to do that from outside the USA)
link

And for those with more money than time, there is always :
Marengo and Hohenlinden : Napoleon's rise to power
James R. Arnold
On Amazon.com (from a US IP address):
Kindle $12.49 USD
On Amazon.se
New SEK 172.42 = ~$19

You don't need an US IP address for that link

archive.org/details/180001furs

Maps – Marengo in part One and Hohenlinden in part Two – note multiple maps of the battles showing differents stages: link

Included in this Atlas are;
Bataille de Leuthen en Silesie
Cartes des bassins du nord de la France{
Carte du bassin de l'Aa
Carte générale du Tyrol
Croquis d'une carte militaire de la Souabe
Tableau d'assemblage des feuilles de la nouvelle carte de la France
Mappe-monde pour indiquer la Charpente des deux continents et les principales divisions naturelles de l'Océan en bassins Océaniques et en bassins maritimes
Tableau des divisions naturelles établies en Europe par les eaux océaniques et par les lignes de partage des eaux á la surface de la terre ferme
Carte générale du bassin du Danube
Plan de Cádiz et de ses environs
Bataille de Marengo
Carte de France
Carte générale du theátre de la guerre
Bataille d'Engen et Stockach
Bataille de Mösskirch
Passage du Danube
Carte d'Ulm et de ses environs pour servir à l'intelligence des operations de l'Armée Francaise du Rhin pendant la campagne de 1800
Bataille de Hohenlinden
Tracé trigonométrique des points du premier et du deuxième ordre, composant la chaîne principale formée sur la ligne frontière des Pyréneés, depuis Perpignan jusqu'a Bayonne
Tableau des stations géodésiques et astronomiques
Carte générale des triangles fondamentaux et des principaux points secondaires de la nouvelle carte topographique de la France
Carte de la province d'Alger
Carte de topographique militaire des Alpes

I have the Arnold book covering the battle but I would certainly like to see a more detailed account published. And I don't think people would not be interested in it because Napoleon was not there. That's an insult to those interested in the Napoleonic period. But I guess some people have to blame Napoleon for everything, even modern day book publishing! LOL

@Prince of Essling
Could you review your link?
Many thanks!

Hohenlinden is a hard battle to game; I still don't really know where one French corps was as it seemed to play no part in the battle. Putting this difficulty aside it was a rather interesting battle, a lot of it was fought in woods.

I created a video to assist me in creating a scenario, if anyone is interested: youtu.be/WlTl87POfzg

Gazzola: agreed, I'm much more likely to pick up a book from a battle I have no books on already than even trying to care about the 20th book about Waterloo published this year.

@pfmodel

Great video – I visited the battlefield – and I agree a difficult terrain and most likely the leaders on the different spots played a very important role.

Question – why do you subtitle

Schlachten des Zweiten Weltkriegs – BATTLE OF HOHENLINDEN

Battles of the Second World War -

Your pronounciation of the German names are not too bad, but for the French, namely Richepanse – this link proves to be very helpfull for a lot of names.

link

@Allan,

Checked the link – it takes me to the correct page. You- need to click on "Descargar" & "Continuar" and will get prompted to save a zip file containing the Atlas which is split in two parts.

Alternatively try going to link which will show "Francia. Atlas. 1820-1845"; click "Descarga" and you should end up back at my original linked page.

Ian

>>Putting this difficulty aside it was a rather interesting battle, a lot of it was fought in woods.<<

IS THAT REALLY TRUE?
My reading, limited as it is to Jeff Berry's lines, and the French texts of Picard and Carrion-Nisas 'Campagne'
all give a good disertation of MARCHING through woods/ deep forest BUT combat is only in the open spaces IMO from this… I certainly dont count 'emerging from' the same as "fought in" either.

cheers d

The main French front line was in the open, so you are correct. The main Austrian thrust (Kollowrat), when it emerged from the woods into open terrain was forced back into the woods and this was the largest Austrian corps. On the Austrian right flank most of the fighting which Kienmayer conducted was in the open as well. But Kollowrat kept on sending small forces back through the woods to check on flanks, etc, which is when they came into contact with Richepanse's division. This was critical as if the Austrians managed to hold Richepanse back they may not have collapsed.

Riesch corps, once checked, retreated and then divided his forces up into small contingents which were sent back through he woods and defeated one at a time. Latour also did the same.

So in summary, the main French front line was positioned in the open, just beyond the edge of the woods, but the critical attack in the rear was conducted through woods. The Austrians also spent most of the day travelling through rather muddy roads through woods.

When I played a number of games, at 1:10000 scale, most of the playing area was covered in woods. I expect if you played a more typical 1:5000 scale game you would only play the French front line, which would have more clear terrain, but even then there was a lot of woods. I was surprised just how much bad terrain there was.

@Prince of Essling
Now I have it. An outstanding collection.
Many thanks!

"When I played a number of games, at 1:10000 scale, most of the playing area was covered in woods. I expect if you played a more typical 1:5000 scale game you would only play the French front line, which would have more clear terrain, but even then there was a lot of woods. I was surprised just how much bad terrain there was."

So often the way – draw the map a bit wider than the immediate battlefield and you get a much better picture of why things happened where they did and in the way they did. Context!

The Furse book, is I suggest, misnamed and deceptive.
It is classic 19thC british boisterous tripe including such pathetic statements as "The passage of the Rhine at Kehl was an exploit of the most glorious character"… telling us NOTHING about what Ney was supposed to have done, except gloat.

The fact that on a fast scan I see nothing about Moreaus Army of Germany Spring campaign; and that the precis before Hohelinden starts on p437, 4/5th of the book is about Bonaparte, other armies including Massena, Marengo preamble and battle; doting over Desaix endlessly and finally, the restart of hostilities.

"Consequently that skilful general [Moreau] was allowed time to retire through the forest of Hohenlinden, to the ground which he had quite lately occupied, and had carefully studied; for he had foreseen how it would he a very probable field for a decisive battle" seems to be an often quoted premise of 'notable' commanders time and again.

Seems history hardly needs examination with such prescience amongst the great!

"Moreau had made very able dispositions. He strove, as much as his plan and many obstacles of the theatre of opera¬ tions permitted, to close up his troops, and to hold them in hand so that they should be thoroughly able to render each other mutual support"- thats strange, a certain persons criticism was the exact opposite- the lack of concentration of the corps.

Another- "for in spite of the canister, the French (Decaen) closed on them with the bayonet and put the Austrians to flight. This was the last effort of the Austrians ; and after this Richepanse met Ney's victorious troops, which were bearing on the Austrians from the opposite direction.*"

Clearly incorrect and impossible, as Ney was posted on the Northen left flank of Moreaus 'centre' corps, before advancing to be parallel with the hard pressed Grouchy.

Richepanse in fact marched Northeast onto the rear and parc of the Austrians. As we know.

Furse refers to a 'Mattenpoet' but did it change names, as JB uses Maitenbeth?

The audacious and extremely risky French plan agreed to in not quite a democratic 'Council of Wer' on the evening of 1December 1800 in epic style of 18THC, to detach and counter-march in difficult terrain AND conditions seems the ultimate balance to the 'great mans' enterprises.

"Any other officer would possibly have halted to re-establish the connection between the two brigades, and reunite his division. But Richepanse knew too well the full importance of the rule which had been assigned to him to do so." I won't disagree with that statement.

"The confusion Richepanse's onset had occasioned in the rear spread rapidly to the van"- however totally disagree with that AND because it was impossible, being over 2 miles of dense forest and darkened weather between the two places, the column of Austrians AND Bavarians was at a crawl, or else fighting to deploy out of the forest driving at Grouchy and Ney, and Decaens intervening force following Richepanses line of march.

A remarkable 'hand over' of battle lines by the French generals whilst engaged in a flank assault. Richepanse regretably sent like others to the West Indies died of yellow fever, must have been an active Moreau adherent. Clearly by his actions and fortitude here he was an excellent if not superior commander.

The equally experienced Decaen whilst he became an Inspector-General was soon sent off, all but exiled I suppose, to India, then Mauritius for 7-8 years. Such was the lot of many from the Army of Germany under Moreau.

Furses' book skips weeks and finalises the Winter campaign with an analysis of some following actions in 30-odd pages, but hardly the massive space given to the other chap.

Hard to tell the pure facts from the imaginative prose for me.
So be it,
~d

≠≠Apologies to all for any misfigured copying from pdf that I've failed to correct.≠≠

So often the way – draw the map a bit wider than the immediate battlefield and you get a much better picture of why things happened where they did and in the way they did. Context!

So true. As I come from a board game background I was always use to the surrounding terrain and the approach moves. Coming into Napoleonic's figure gaming most games only cover the point of contact, which has its own interest, but I do prefer the bigger picture.

If you have a large enough playing area Age of Eagles does a good job at giving you the big picture, but you do need a large table. BBNB allows you to do the same on a smaller playing area and using a figure game version of SPI Napoleon at War gives you the big picture in a form you can complete in 2-4 hours. I also tried to use DBN, which is a great set of rules, but not suited to reproducing a historical battle easily.

And thats the frustrating, myopic, single-thrust dogma of 'organised' rules and games. Completely leaves out the preamble that so often produces 'events' that created great battles.

One reason I changed from playing to running competitions- much more satisfaction and reduction of the 'know-it-all' mentality of games.

Enjoyable to read with some good sense of humor and nice maps link

The Schneider book:-

link

;-)