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"Is China making the same mistake as the Soviets?" Topic


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doc mcb01 Nov 2021 4:19 p.m. PST

link

Historical analogies are always slippery. China is not Russia and we are not the America of the 1950s. Nevertheless . . .

Comments?

Nick Bowler01 Nov 2021 5:12 p.m. PST

Good article, and I agree with pretty much everything. From the down under point of view, China has gone from being a good neighbor to a schoolyard bully.

Its a pity the US pulled out of the TPP, as that was an unstated anti-chinese trading block, and it could have applied some economic pressure.

arealdeadone01 Nov 2021 5:47 p.m. PST

The issue is at some point things would have come to a head regardless when it comes to SC Sea or Taiwan.

What were the alternatives – China cedes Taiwanese independence which in turn fuels Uighurs, Tibetans, dissidents and anyone else with a beef (it's the same reason Spain won't allow Catalonia to be independence).

No doubt the US (as well as Islamist countries) would covertly sponsor these groups especially if the US wished to neutralise China's economic growth (which it naturally must do in order to stay top dog).

It's not just the end of Communist China, it's the end of modern China. They're back to the century of humiliation.


A power that loses its hunger and gives concessions will collapse – look at any empire in human history. Power is a zero sum game.

The article talks about:

"focused its spending on areas of comparative advantage, such as conventional capabilities designed to give China an edge along its maritime periphery."

Yet even these developments have been criticised for years by China hawks. Indeed China building a ton of littoral corvettes and other coastal vessels is seen as military arms race despite these vessels having very little or no ability to project power and are generally defensive.

Even when China started upgrading its 1960s vintage fighter fleet (based primarily on 1950s technology MiG-17 and MiG-19 and very early MiG-21F-13) with Russian Su-27s in 1990s, it was met with a lot of howls about militarism.

You hear the same with Russia. If Russia replaces old aircraft or other equipment in the western or even Pacific forces, it's viewed with hostility. This was even the case before Putin became a bogey man.

Every new vessel is derided as militarism even when it's merely replacing some clapped out Soviet clunkers and even given usually these ships aren't as capable as what they're replacing (Buyan, Steregushchiy and Gremyashchiy class corvettes and light frigates aren't even close to older Udaloy and Sovremenny class destroyers in terms of combat capability).


So the expectation from US about China's defence is the same as it is for Russia's defence – ie China's/Russia's defence must be based around appeasing the US and its requirements.

US does this with its allies too – if the US thinks you can't have advanced fighters it will do everything it can to stop you acquiring those.

It used to be a boon for the French who sold weapons to allied regimes the US would only sell junk too. Eg If you want a higher spec fighter than an F-5E Tiger II (or even worse A-37B Dragonfly), you'd buy French Mirage III/V/F1s.


Morocco for example struggled to even obtain F-5Es in early/mid 1970s despite being in an active war against Soviet sponsored Polisario Front who were shooting down older Moroccan F-5A Freedom Fighters with Soviet MANPADS. It wasn't until the French started selling Mirage F1s to Morocco that US relented and sold Morocco F-5Es.

----


Ramping up nuclear deterrence makes sense regardless of whether China wants to be peaceful or a wolf warrior.

You can't be a superpower without the ability to ensure MAD.


As it stands now the US could easily take out China's puny nuclear deterrent and level all of China with relatively few casualties.


From the down under point of view, China has gone from being a good neighbor to a schoolyard bully.

Down under deliberately ignored Chinese developments because our political class was in China's pockets. It wasn't until Professor Clive Hamilton released his book, Silent Invasion in 2018, that you saw the Australian political elites shift their message.

The Chinese were highly offended at their proto-tribute state starting to think for themselves and made us their new whipping boy.


Note Australia has done virtually nothing to ween itself off economic dependence on China.

Its a pity the US pulled out of the TPP, as that was an unstated anti-chinese trading block, and it could have applied some economic pressure.

Good riddance. "Free trade" is the reason we are in this mess.

Only beneficiaries of free trade would be corporations and other unscrupulous business types who would have used TPP to sue countries for legislation that hurt their profits (eg environmental protections), and ramp up labour exploitation and offshoring to the third world.

Modern free trade and neoliberalism is the number 1 threat to the west. It empowers our enemies whilst creating poverty and inequality in the west and destroying our sovereignty.


Doesn't help most of TPP was top secret and that most of its primary drafters and various committee members (85%) were from businesses and industries that would have been biggest beneficiaries.

Bunkermeister Supporting Member of TMP01 Nov 2021 8:12 p.m. PST

Free trade is fine when it is between nations that have the same general interests. I buy toy soldiers from Canada, and Canada buys wheat from me. Canada does not use the money to spy on the USA or build aircraft carriers to threaten US interests, or threaten my friends. China does those things.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

arealdeadone01 Nov 2021 8:34 p.m. PST

Bunkermeister,

The issue is more complicated than that especially as free trade is seldom but free.


Eg South Korea and Japan got massive inroads in ship building in 1960-80s because they heavily undercut western yards whose stupid governments gladly played the free trade game and cut subsidies.

So the South Koreans and Japanese subsidised their ship building industries (most operated at extreme losses) so they could take over previous western markets.

The western countries played the free trade game and their shipyards died.

Hence Australia, US and UK produce virtually no large ships themselves (especially commercial vessels).


Japan and South Korea might not have been overt enemies but their actions were hostile and undermined western interests.


---------

Then there's exploitation of third world labour and lax third world environmental standards.

And there is a blow back domestically as local western labour's bargaining power is obliterated and lucrative well protected and regulated factory jobs are replaced by intermittent poorer paid casual jobs without protection.

All part and parcel of free trade/liberalisation aka neo-liberal economics.


The result is a world where the rich get richer, inequality grows and people in many western states are now going backwards in terms of living standards.

Barin102 Nov 2021 4:31 a.m. PST

I don't think you should count on Chinese being stupid, they are not.

They control a significant portion of world production (they also depend on some equipment, so they're not fully self-independent, but we all also depend on them).

They're not using communism ideology to bring more countries into their orbit, they use old reliable money. They're doing very similar thing to what capitalists were doing for ages -give credits and wait till they can influence economy and politics of their "partners", get strategic mining and agricultural concessions, pumping their military, etc.

In Cold War SU could not be fully rational, we had ideology to follow, they're free from it. When we were trying to incite a socialist revolution in Africa, they'll just buy needed number of politicians and have control that is much stronger – you can't change sides if you legally owned by one of them…

Personally I'm not for alliance with China, but in current situation it is becoming more likely. I doubt we'll sign military alliance with them, but large scale coordination of actions and policies, especially those, aimed at getting the chunk of world pie from the West to ourselves – this is very likely.

arealdeadone02 Nov 2021 2:46 p.m. PST

Barin1 hits nail on the head.

The Chinese are certainly not in the same boat as USSR which was an economic midget and too rooted in ideology.

The Chinese combine everything from Confucianism to Communism to Fascism to western economic liberalism to create a very pragmatic approach.

Personally I'm not for alliance with China, but in current situation it is becoming more likely

The current Russian-Chinese informal partnership makes a lot of sense for Russia. If Russia only had to contend with Europeans then it would not be so essential as the Europeans are far more willing to cooperate and leave in peace with Russia.

But the elephant in the room is the USA and it just keeps pushing Russia eastward into the arms of China.

Barin103 Nov 2021 7:53 a.m. PST

I wonder if you have seen this article…we have a site translating Russia-related artiicles from various countries.

link

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