von Winterfeldt | 16 Oct 2021 8:48 a.m. PST |
the Völkerschlacht, battle of nations – 16th – 19th of october crushing Boney's army and destroying the Confederation of the Rhine and liberating Germany. |
SHaT1984 | 16 Oct 2021 10:05 a.m. PST |
Yes an intriguing time and complexity of machinations on both sides that I haven't kept up with in modern research. cheers d |
Eleve de Vauban | 16 Oct 2021 10:44 a.m. PST |
Herr Winterfeldt – were you about to make a point or raise an issue about Leipzig, more than celebrating the anniversary of the battle? |
SHaT1984 | 16 Oct 2021 12:52 p.m. PST |
It's another 'anniversary'- so does it matter..? |
von Winterfeldt | 16 Oct 2021 1:17 p.m. PST |
no just an anniversary of a forgotten battle. |
laretenue | 16 Oct 2021 2:13 p.m. PST |
See – von W said 'liberating'! I'll fetch the popcorn … |
deadhead | 16 Oct 2021 3:13 p.m. PST |
Things are quiet on every forum frankly, so why should not von W remind us of the anniversary? OK it happens in a significant fraction of every year (ie 4/365 approx) but, if it sparks a discussion, then fine. If it does not then maybe it is our fault. laretenue started well by questioning "liberating", but could have developed that further. This is a Discussion forum. Even saying it is nonsense is discussion, but this site does need some input from folk. Tango cannot do it single handed. For me the lesson of the battle is make sure the guy with the bridge is clear about his duties and the demolition charge, plus swimming lessons for every Pole. That was not a deep river, others did manage it. Mind you, there is a suggestion that he had been shot before attempting the crossing |
Brechtel198 | 16 Oct 2021 5:27 p.m. PST |
Where and when has Leipzig been forgotten? The Grande Armee was not 'crushed' at Leipzig. It was a serious defeat, owing mainly to the bridge over the Elster being prematurely blown after the officer responsible for the demolition left his post. Napoleon had decided to withdraw early on 17 October. By 1100 on 18 October French trains followed by cavalry were moving into Lindenau. At 0200 on 19 October the French main body began their withdrawal, with Macdonald, Poniatowski, and Reynier forming the rear guard. The allies didn't advance against the French until 0700 and the French rear guard withdrew into Leipzig's suburbs at about 1000and were forced by the allied attack to withdraw into the city around 1200. The Lindenau bridge was destroyed after those events and times. The 'guy with the bridge' responsibility, a colonel of engineers had abandoned his post leaving a corporal in charge, and it was the corporal who detonated the bridge charges, isolating troops in Leipzig, some of whom managed to get out. I really don't see how Germany was 'liberated' in 1813. The Confederation of the Rhine did fall apart, but most of the main members of the Confederation were not happy with the Prussians and Austrians showing up, especially as the member states for the most part were thoroughly stripped of men and supplies for the allies. The Prussian 'war of liberation' was actually the Prussian attempts to 'liberate' as much of Germany as possible to come under their 'benevolent' rule. |
Dave Jackson | 16 Oct 2021 5:44 p.m. PST |
Words out of my mouth Kevin. |
Brechtel198 | 16 Oct 2021 6:13 p.m. PST |
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Tango01 | 16 Oct 2021 10:28 p.m. PST |
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von Winterfeldt | 16 Oct 2021 11:01 p.m. PST |
not without any reasons it is called liberation wars – like it or not, eventually free of a tyrant abusing his Allies, see Saxony in 1813, or Prussia in 1812, or Westphalia. |
Brechtel198 | 17 Oct 2021 3:35 a.m. PST |
Prussia deserved what happened to them as they began the 1806 war. Saxony was divided almost in half, one half being demanded by Prussia. The Saxon units that went to Prussia mutinied in 1815 before Waterloo and almost got their hands on Blucher who ran out of the back entrance to his headquarters to get away from them. That was 'liberation?' Prussian rule was hardly 'enlightened.' Westphalia was broken up, some of it going to Prussia and the rest back to its 'legitimate' rulers, who abolished the Napoleonic reforms. Prussia's long-term goals were to united Germany under their leadership and sovereignty. And that would lead Europe to disastrous consequences twice. Interstingly, a united Germany has never won a war-they lost big twice. |
Decebalus | 17 Oct 2021 4:24 a.m. PST |
Yes, not losing men for a foreign monarch can be called liberation. Not being part of wars, you do not want, can be called liberation. Having the possibility to fight for rights, Democracy and economic growth without foreign troops intervening, can be called liberation. I doubt, that you judge American or British nation building as harsh, as you do German nation building. |
Brechtel198 | 17 Oct 2021 6:52 a.m. PST |
The Prussian king was a foreign monarch to the newly-'acquired' regions of western Germany. And the foreign troops 'intervening' in 1813 were those of the allies. What 'rights' and 'democracy' did Prussia bring to the newly 'acauired' lands? The French actually did bring rights to Germany, such as the abolishment of feudalism. Prussian rule was indeed considered 'harsh and foreign' to some in western Germany. And the independent western German states were afraid of being absobed by both Prussia and Austria which is why they turned to Napoleon in the first place and agreed to form the Confederation of the Rhine in July 1806. And how many Germans from the various states were lost in 1814 fighting the French? Was it only 'wrong' when the French did it? |
grenadier corporal | 17 Oct 2021 10:38 a.m. PST |
Victory has always been written by the victors. Brechtel198 (BTW – enigmatic nickname) has many good points. The issues are much too complex to solve then with a few posts. Just one question: what was Napoleon's legitimation to create the kingdoms of Westphalia, Holland, Spain – for his brothers as kings ? PS: my nickname comes from my reenactment "rank" |
Brechtel198 | 17 Oct 2021 12:38 p.m. PST |
One reason was to give his brothers something to do and to keep them out of trouble… And he might have taken the Bourbons and Hapsburgs as examples… |
Tortorella | 17 Oct 2021 8:20 p.m. PST |
Back to Leipzig, the battle, I have longed for a decent narrative history in a lively style for many years. Petre came closest, I think. He is readable, even today, but I don't know the research as I read him on Kindle. Nafziger is full of info but not a great read. We keep giving Waterloo a never-ending amount of written attention, to the point of redundancy IMO. Leipzig gets next to nothing by comparison. It was a huge and important battle. The attrition and decline of the Grand Armee that began in Russia was surely irreversible after this. No offense to the British and Waterloo is meant by this, but I think Napoleon lost nearly as many men at Leipzig as the number of soldiers in his entire force at Waterloo. Maybe not crushed, but close. Anyone have any thoughts on Leipzig books? I await a modern account, along with a bio of Archduke Charles someday. |
ChaosMan | 17 Oct 2021 10:59 p.m. PST |
@Tortorella, I would agree – I've been focusing my research on Austerlitz and Leipzig to forcibly cover almost all the major nations of the era and a full evolution of the combatants. And the number of books written on Austerlitz is 2x that of Leipzig (let alone the excessive number of books on Waterloo). Strange since its a battle that has epic scale, treachery, heroics, rockets!, panic, etc. The list that I've been able to find includes (and I don't think any hit the "lively style narrative history") (I also don't read German so I may be missing key books): Leipzig 1813 – Europe Against Napoleon, Gilles Boue Europe Against Napoleon, Antony Brett-James Napoleon's Grande Armee of 1813, Scott Bowden Leipzig 16-19 Octobre 1813, Walter Bruyere-Ostells (French) The Battle of Leipzig, Charles River Editors Leipzig, Bruno Colson (French) Imperial Sunset, The Fall of Napoleon 1813-14, R.F. Delderfield The Leipsic Campaign, Rev. G.R. Gleig Leipzig 1813 The Battle of Nations, Peter Hofschroer Great Battles Leipzig, Per-Eric Jansson Napoleon The Last Campaigns 1813-15, James Lawford Napoleon and the Struggle for Germany (3 Vol), Michael Leggiere The Leipzig Campaign 1813, F.N. Maude Napoleon at Leipzig, George Nafziger Leipzig – La Fin du Reve de Napoleon, Frederic Naulet (French) Des Principales Operations de la Campagne de 1813, Jean-Jacques-Germain Pelet (French) Napoleon's Last Campaign in Germany 1813, F. Loraine Petre Relation bataille de Leipzig, colonel prussien Charles de Plotho (French) Napoleon and the World War of 1813 – Lessons in Coalition Warfighting, J.P. Riley 1813 Empire at Bay, Jonathan Riley Leipzig – A Conflict of Titans, Frederic Shoberl The Narrative of the Most Remarkable Events Which Occured In and Near Leipzig, Frederic Shoberl 1813 Leipzig, Digby Smith (aka Otto von Pikva) |
FatherOfAllLogic | 18 Oct 2021 7:07 a.m. PST |
For such a talented fellow, Napoleon picked a dreadful location to fight a battle. Funnily enough the roles were reversed shortly thereafter as the Bavarians tried to stop the French withdrawl, with a river to their rear and only one bridge. |
Brechtel198 | 18 Oct 2021 8:33 a.m. PST |
Marmont made a similar comment on the position. The battle itself, was mostly fought south of the city. |
Tortorella | 18 Oct 2021 11:23 a.m. PST |
ChaosMan! You have made a very nice unchaotic list, with some stuff I have not seen. Thank you! I have also wondered if there are some German language books we don't hear much about. Surely somebody wrote a bio of Archduke Charles at some point. |
Allan F Mountford | 18 Oct 2021 1:25 p.m. PST |
Review of Digby Smith's book: link |
Murvihill | 18 Oct 2021 3:22 p.m. PST |
I guess whether German liberation was a good thing or not depended on whether you felt it was inevitable or not. Since both sides played kingmaker I don't think a moral argument can be made either way. BTW, Leipzig was and still is the most inspirational Napoleonic battle for me. You'll find much of the 11th corps troops in my French army. |
Brechtel198 | 18 Oct 2021 4:24 p.m. PST |
German 'liberation' under Prussia was not a good thing as it inevitably lead to two disastrous 20th century wars, the second more brutal than the first. |
Au pas de Charge | 18 Oct 2021 4:26 p.m. PST |
Probably because Leipzig hasnt got a lot of English sources and that might put off Anglo-American authors. It would be interesting to go back in time and stop that bridge blowing corporal! I never cared that much about Napoleon the man until i was exposed to the anti Napolein extremists and that has now made me very interested in Napoleon. I cant help but laugh that a crew who thinks theyll stifle debate or interest about Napoleon actually have the opposite effect. |
Murvihill | 18 Oct 2021 4:36 p.m. PST |
"German 'liberation' under Prussia was not a good thing as it inevitably lead to two disastrous 20th century wars, the second more brutal than the first." You'd have to be a professional taffy puller to stretch the 1813 campaign into a cause for WW2. |
Tortorella | 18 Oct 2021 4:41 p.m. PST |
Thank you Alan. A bit pricy for a new copy on Amazon and not available for Kindle or in paperback, so I opted for a used copy. |
Tortorella | 18 Oct 2021 4:53 p.m. PST |
A final thought. I was first attracted to this battle in my early Napoleonic reading days by the sheer size of it. There had been big battles like Borodino and Wagram earlier, but this one topped everything. Having grown up believing that Waterloo was the main event of the Napoleonic wars, I was amazed at the scope and color of Leipzig. The Battle of the Nations says it all. I am glad to see the anniversary post here. |
von Winterfeldt | 19 Oct 2021 4:48 a.m. PST |
only one bridge and that blown apart too early, despite why weren't more built? Le prince de Wagram avait proposé de faire des ponts de bois afin de faciliter la marche des voitures et conserver la route pour l'armée. L'Empereur rejetta cette mesure si sage parc qu'il ne voulait pas que personne eut la pensée de battre en retraite. p. 146 Vionnet de Maringoné : Souvenir d'un ex-Commandant des Grenadiers de la Vieille Garde, Paris 1899 Boney's mental disorder, narcissist is pretty evident in his later years, usually ingoring sage advise of otherwise trusted subordinates. As for books in German, I don't know of any recently published ones, will have a look and post old ones in the usefull stuff section. |
Brechtel198 | 19 Oct 2021 5:01 a.m. PST |
The continuing reference's to Napoleon's 'mental disorder' is rubbish and can be construed as nothing more than phychobabble. There is no proof, and a person who has been dead for 200 years can hardly be psychoanalyzed. The recent paper published on the subject uses very poor period references, such as Bourrienne, and is not credible by any stretch of the imagination. As to bridges, there was neither time nor material to build more that the Lindenau bridge. Further, it would have given the allies an indication of Napoleon's planned withdrawal. And Napoleon, as has already been stated, did not plan to withdraw until after the first day's fighting. |
von Winterfeldt | 19 Oct 2021 5:37 a.m. PST |
I cannot see an on line link, but in case you can get Julius v. Pflugk-Harttung, Leipzig 1813: Aus den Akten des Kriegsarchiv, des Geheimen Staatsarchivs Berlin, Staatsarchivs in Breslau und des Ministeriums des Ministeriums der auswärtigen Angelegenheiten in London (Gotha: Perthes, 1913), p. iii. This is a general work about 1813 but contains a lot of battle field reports of Prussian units fighting at Leipzig. Otherwise please visit usefull stuff section in media |
4th Cuirassier | 19 Oct 2021 5:38 a.m. PST |
One of the more telling Boney quotes is the one from 1806 where he said words to the effect of, One has but a limited time for war; five more years and I will be played out. Five years after he said that, he was..er…organising a second front war against Russia. Seven years after he said it he was directing the conduct of Leipzig. Says it all. I am not sure it is so crazy to see a direct causative line between 1813 and 1914. Let's not forget that the big German nightmare was a war on two fronts. If they were at war with Russia they were at risk from France. As a result, the German plan to avoid a war with France and Russia was to start one with France as soon as they were at war with Russia. Some really superb lateral thinking going on there. This plan needlessly drew in France, failed utterly, ensured the two-front war they didn't want and hence eventual catastrophic defeat, and was all the work of the supposedly brilliant German general staff. In other words, they were just as smart in 1914 as they were in 1813-15, i.e. not very, but they talk a good post-match analysis. |
von Winterfeldt | 19 Oct 2021 5:42 a.m. PST |
poor Poniatowski and the betrayed Poles as well had to suffer from megalomanica Boney who threw in the wind all precautions. as for the betrayal of the Poles, see this interesting thread link |
von Winterfeldt | 19 Oct 2021 5:44 a.m. PST |
by the way Prussia did not liberate Germany alone, it was an Allied force – Russians as well, and who kindled nationalism and made it strong, narcissist Boney himself. |
grenadier corporal | 19 Oct 2021 6:52 a.m. PST |
"German 'liberation' under Prussia was not a good thing as it inevitably lead to two disastrous 20th century wars, the second more brutal than the first." So no World Wars if Napoleon had stayed in power? What a thesis … |
Au pas de Charge | 19 Oct 2021 7:13 a.m. PST |
Ooooh Napoleon may have lied to some Polish soldiers as opposed to Prussia, Austria and Russia which wanted to repartition Poland with Britain's blessing. Assuming that the other powers were legitimate, benign and enlightened is a demonstration of selective, wishful thinking. |
Brechtel198 | 19 Oct 2021 8:55 a.m. PST |
So no World Wars if Napoleon had stayed in power? Without a united Germany under Prussia that is a valid conclusion. And it should be remembered that Napoleon was not the aggressor in 1805, 1806, 1807, and 1809…the allies were, led and financed by Great Britain. |
Brechtel198 | 19 Oct 2021 8:56 a.m. PST |
…narcissist Boney himself. …megalomanica Boney… Psychobabble. |
Brechtel198 | 19 Oct 2021 8:59 a.m. PST |
…by the way Prussia did not liberate Germany alone, it was an Allied force… That is true…but it was Prussia who took large chunks of Germany, not the Russians, Austrians, or British. Prussia's long term goal was to dominate in Germany, which eventually they did, unfortunately. |
von Winterfeldt | 19 Oct 2021 10:00 a.m. PST |
here a very usefull one, you need a US IP address to be able to download Befreiungskrieg 1813 und 1814: Bd. Feldzug von Leipzig, bearbeitet von Maximilian, Ritter von Hoen [und anderen Ausgabe 5 von Befreiungskrieg 1813 und 1814: Einzeldarstellungen der entscheidenden Kriegsereignisse, Austro-Hungarian Monarchy. K. und K. Kriegsarchiv Geschichte der kämpfe Österreichs link |
Gazzola | 19 Oct 2021 11:47 a.m. PST |
'Forgotten battle' LOL As if! We all know that poor old VW would never let that happen, hence his post! Perhaps he has stifled anything to do with Leipzig by mistake? There are posts about the battle and games based on it, so I can't possibly think of any other reason he thinks it might be 'forgotten'. LOL He just needs to unstifle everyone! |
Tango01 | 19 Oct 2021 3:21 p.m. PST |
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Mike the Analyst | 20 Oct 2021 3:29 p.m. PST |
In the historical notes to Napoleon at Leipzig from OSG there is mention of the support column containing the army treasure, the artillery park, engineers and pontoons. This column ( commanded by Durrieu ) failed to rejoin the army and fell back on Torgau. This may explain the failure to create more bridges over the Elster. Various references to Nafziger are given. |
Brechtel198 | 20 Oct 2021 4:05 p.m. PST |
There was no time, as already posted, to build any additional bridges over the Elster, even if the pontoon train had been available. Doing so would also alert the allies to Napoleon's intentions. The largest problem was that the army's reserve ammunition was with the trains and as the artillery consumption was heavy on the first day, with no replacement available, that undoubtedly contributed to Napoleon's decision after the first day's fighting to withdraw. That was the only time during the wars that the Grande Armee was close to running out of ammunition. |
SHaT1984 | 22 Oct 2021 11:20 p.m. PST |
Of course we did get to skip 'Auerstadt October 14, 1806'… Was the precusor, one could hypothesise____ link |
von Winterfeldt | 22 Oct 2021 11:35 p.m. PST |
indeed instead of Auerstedt we should call it battle of Hassenhausen, but -seemingly a lot of people cannot even get Auerstedt right I wonder how they would garble up Hassenhausen. |
Gazzola | 25 Oct 2021 12:15 p.m. PST |
All this talk of Leipzig and Prussians has stirred my interest in Napoleon and the French's glorious double victories in 1806. It's been some time since I last enjoyed reading about them. |
Stoppage | 25 Oct 2021 3:30 p.m. PST |
@gazzola Yes – TMP is great for cross-pollination of ideas and encouraging mores. |
Tango01 | 27 Oct 2021 9:45 p.m. PST |
Of possible interest? link
Armand |