""The Hussars of Conflans"" Topic
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le Grande Quartier General | 07 Oct 2021 8:28 a.m. PST |
Hi all, does anybody know the # of the regiment that "The Hussars of Conflans" might have been? (If in fact there was such a unit or distinction). Neither old Etienne nor that fellow that wrote those detective novels will tell me. |
Brechtel198 | 07 Oct 2021 9:34 a.m. PST |
The Hussars of Conflans were created or evolved from Fishcer's Legion and was formed in 1761. In 1789 the regiment became the Hussars de Saxe and in 1791 became the 4th Hussar Regiment. The next year the regiment deserted to the allies which caused the hussar arm to be renumbered. The old Colonel-General Regiment now became the 4th Hussars and the old Lauzan Hussars were now the 5th hussars. |
le Grande Quartier General | 07 Oct 2021 1:15 p.m. PST |
Thank You! What's this about going over to the Allies? Honour demands loyalty to the King, even in exile? Officers loyalists, troopers follow? Sounds like an interesting story. I wonder if they had a motto as other regiments had. I have also heard, that as they evolved from the Hungarian model, French Royalist and Revolutionary Hussar regiments were run as sort of rank and honor-based hierarchies where chain-of-command was rigorously adhered to, except in cases of dishonor. Like a mounted motorcycle club it seems! I don't know how accurate that analogy is. My source may have been exercising hyperbole. |
ColCampbell | 07 Oct 2021 2:36 p.m. PST |
From the Kronoskaf web site: link And link Jim |
robert piepenbrink | 07 Oct 2021 3:25 p.m. PST |
This is all very well for real life, gentlemen. But the importance today of the Hussars de Conflans--as the OP notes--is that Brigadier Etienne Gerard served in the regiment during the First Empire, and it endured as a French regiment long enough for Brigadier Gerard to see it in a revue at the outbreak of the Crimean War. Gerard describes them as having gray uniforms with red facings. In his honor, I generally paint up the 3me Hussars in those colors, though I think the balance of evidence leans more toward a blue-gray in the period, and they were the Esterhazy Hussars prior to the Revolution. You should NEVER let mere fact get in the way of an Arthur Conan Doyle story. You wind up claiming that snakes don't drink milk, and there is no such thing as an Indian Swamp Adder. But we all know better, don't we? |
42flanker | 08 Oct 2021 1:15 a.m. PST |
In the fillum Gerard wears a uniform of tasteful cafe au lait.
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robert piepenbrink | 08 Oct 2021 4:11 a.m. PST |
42nd, are you expecting Hollywood people to READ? |
Michman | 08 Oct 2021 7:25 a.m. PST |
"What's this about going over to the Allies?" I do not think it completely fair to say that Saxe-hussards "deserted". They were essentially not French, but German. They were contracted troops, and their contracts were unilaterally converted into national service for the revolutionary givernment. Under the ancien régime, the régiment de Conflans-hussards (later, régiment de Saxe-hussards) was part of the French army's German cavalry. They were recruited and operated, typically at a profit, by a proprietary colonel who purchased a commission for the regiment from the French crown. The regiment's recruiting was done in the Rhineland Palatinate, outside of France. The languge of command was German. The garrison location alternated between Landau-in-der-Pfalz northwest of Karlsruhe and Haguenau northeast of Strasbourg. From 1 Mar 1789, the colonel-proprietaire was Prinz Franz Xaver von Sachsen und Polen, Graf von der Lausitz (Dresden 1730 – Schlosse Zabelitz 1806), a younger son of the Elector of Saxony and King of Poland and grandson of the Holy Roman Emperor. Also Louis XVI's uncle, he emigrated at the time of the king's arrest in August 1792. On 1 January 1791, the French military abolished proprietary regiments (without compensation) and the separate status of "foreign" units. The régiment de Saxe-hussards became the 4e régiment de hussards. The senior officers of the regiment remained essentially German …. colonel de Carové : Baron Anton Johann von Carové (Andernach, Kurfürstentum Köln 1741 – Roveredo, near Lugano 1806), colonel 10 Mar 1788, promoted maréchal de camp 20 May 1791, emigrated 22 May 1792 colonel Gottesheim : Baron Friedrich Heinrich von Gottesheim (Wisches, near Strasbourg 1733 – Sarrebourg 1814), colonel 25 Jul 1791, emigrated with the regiment 4 May 1792 lieutenant-colonel de Kayser : Franz Anton Kayser (Rosheim, near Strasbourg 1733 – Rosheim 1793), lieutenant-colonel 1785, retired 14 Mar 1789 lieutenant-colonel de Wardener : Baron Klaus Reud von Wardener (Strasbourg 1733 – Preßburg 1813), major 1785, lieutenant-colonel 13 Mar 1787, emigrated with the regiment 4 May 1792 lieutenant-colonel le chevalier d'Acton : Phillip Edward Acton, Esq. (Besançon 1744 – Naples 1820), lieutenant-colonel 19 Jan 1790, emigrated in early 1791 (carrying with him 30,000 livres for the crown) lieutenant-colonel de Flamerding : Isaak Behaghel von Flammerdinghe (Frankfurt am Main ~1745 – 1808+), lieutenant-colonel 6 Nov 1790, emigrated with the regiment 4 May 1792 |
robert piepenbrink | 08 Oct 2021 9:16 a.m. PST |
Most of the Bercheny Hussars went over to the Allies, too. But in that case the Revolutionary French rebuilt from the single squadron which hadn't rather than admit the loss of their senior hussar regiment. One of many reasons why I don't use "treason" in discussing periods of conflicting loyalties, unless someone is actually wearing one side's uniform and drawing one side's pay while working for the other side--as, for example, Benedict Arnold. But "desertion" can also be misused, I think. |
Brechtel198 | 08 Oct 2021 9:47 a.m. PST |
No, some of the Bercheny, later the 1st Hussars, went over to the allies. The greater majority of the regiment stayed loyal to France. Royal Allemand also deserted to the allies. Those troopers from the 4th Hussars that remained loyal were put into the Legion of Kellermann, which in 1794 became the 4th Hussars. You can call it what you want, but desertion is desertion, regardless of ethnicity. And it should be remembered that there were German-speaking areas in eastern France, such as Alsace and Lorraine. And they were Frenchmen. |
42flanker | 08 Oct 2021 1:58 p.m. PST |
@robert piepenbrink "42nd, are you expecting Hollywood people to READ?" Well, that's not for me to say, but what I would say is that I don't expect Conan Doyle to be an exemplary source reference for military history (Northumberland Fusliiers. Maiwand etc)- or herpetology for that matter. |
Michman | 09 Oct 2021 3:49 a.m. PST |
Nationaly identity, and langauge, was a nuanced topic in the late 18th century. It is not perfectly clear whether the government of France or the people themselves considered Alsatians or Lorrainers as "French" before 1789. Most of Alsace had been purchased and/or occupied by France in pieces over the period 1639-1697. But the Alsatians were granted considerable autonomy : customs-free trade over the Rhine, German/Alsatian language, toleration of Protestantism, recognition of nobility not granted by the French crown, traditional "Imperial" tax and legal systems, etc. The revolutionary government ended this sepatate status and created two "départements" out of Alsace in 1789 : Haut-Rhin and Bas-Rhin. The Duchy of Lorraine and the Duchy of Bar were claimed personally by Louis XV in 1766. But successors of Holy Roman Emperor Francis I had roughly equal claims. The local language in northeastern Lorraine was a mixed German-French local dialect, generally not intelligable to German or French speakers. The rest of Lorraine spoke French or French dialects. The Duchy was not incoporated into the government of France until 1789 when its separate staus and that of the Barrois were ended and the "départements" of Moselle, Vosges, Meurthe and Meuse were created. |
Brechtel198 | 09 Oct 2021 4:17 a.m. PST |
Corsica also became French in 1769 just before Napoleon was born… |
Michman | 09 Oct 2021 6:58 a.m. PST |
The 1er hussards (ci-devant de Berchény) had three cases of mass emigration, totalling about 6 squadrons of hussards entering Allied service. The régiment de Berchény-hussards had been traditionally considered as "Hungarian" cavalry in the French service, Their recruitment had been Hugarian, Polish and German, with the proprietorship remaning in the hands of the Berchény family, and located at Metz in Lorraine. However, by the 1780's the regiment accepted French troopers in equal measure to foreigners and was located in the Vendée, at Fontenay-le-Comte, 40 km northeast of La Rochelle. In June 1789, they were called to Paris, and located at Montmédy. On 1 Jan 1791 they became the 1er régiment de hussards. Ordered to the frontier at Sarrelouis in Feb 1791, the comte de Berchény paraded the regiment and announced [my translation] : "Hussards ! I had come to France with you to serve the king. Today, the revolution triumphs; my mission is now impossible. I do not wish to break my oaths. I bid you farewell." He turned and road away toward the border. Most of his officers and 365 men departed with him, nearly all foreign born – the men on foot, after handing over the horses that belonged to the regiment. About 200 men, mostly French, remained. The remains of the regiment were ordered to Thionville and rebuilt. At the end of April 1792, the regiment was ordered back to the front, whereupon colonel Georger led another 22 officers, including both lieutenant-colonels, and 90 other ranks into emigration. And a third time …. Colonel Nordman, who had distinguished himself at Valmy commanding the regiment as a lieutenant-colonel, led 2 squadrons of the regiment into emigration with Dumouriez in April 1793. Again the nuances of "nationality" among the colonels of the era …. colonel-proprietaire de Berchény : François Antoine Ladislas, le comte Berchény de Szekes / Graf Ferenc Antal László Székesi Bercsényi (Lunéville in Lorraine 1741 – London 1811), colonel-proprietaire after the death of his elder brother in 1762, maréchal de camp in 1787, emigrated with over half the regiment ~15 Feb 1791, retired in England colonel de Turpin : Henri-Roland-Lancelot, le marquis Turpin de Crissé (Paris 1754 – Philadelphia 1799), colonel 10 Mar 1788, did not follow de Berchény into emigration, discharged 25 Jul 1791 for "incivisme", emigrated in 1793, died in poverty in the USA colonel Georger : Philippe Jacques, le marquis de Gorger / Freiherr Phillip Jakob von Görger (Fort-Louis in Alsace 1742 – Prague 1811), colonel 25 Jul 1791, emigrated with part of the regiment 9 May 1792, later became a General in Austrian service colonel Stengal : Henri Christian Michel, le baron de Stengal / Baron Heinrich Christian Michael von Stengel (Neustadt ain the Rhinland Palatinate 1744 – Carassone 1796), colonel 16 May 1792, promoted maréchal de camp le 13 Sep 1792, motrally wounded at the battle of Mondovì colonel Nordman : Joseph Armand de Nordman / Joseph Armand von Nordmann (Molsheim in Alsace 1759 – Wagram 1809), lieutenant colonel May 1792, colonel 24 Oct 1792, emigrated with 2 squadrons 4 Apr 1793, later became a General and Ritter in Austrian service |
Brechtel198 | 09 Oct 2021 8:10 a.m. PST |
What were the other 'two?' Some of the troopers when with Bercheny when he deserted, but most returned to duty. Six squadrons equals 12 companies. What is your source or sources for the posting. If that many companies/squadrons had deserted the regiment would have ceased to exist and the remnants would have been disbanded and sent to other units. Then the hussar arm would have been renumbered with a new 1st Regiment. |
Michman | 09 Oct 2021 1:54 p.m. PST |
I should have counted out the three instances of emigration more clearly. I apologize. --- 1. With former colonel-proprietaire comte de Berchény in February 1791 : most of the officers & 365 other ranks : ~2 squadrons (up to 200 men did not emigrate, joining 50-100 not in the ranks when de Berchény departed) --- 2. With colonel marquis de Georger in May 1792 : 22 out of 31 officers (including both lieutenant-colonels) & 90 other ranks, mostly senior NCO's : ~1/2 squadron (there was no appeal to the hussards in general to join the emigration) --- 3. With chef de brigade de Nordman in April 1793 : all of the 2+ squadrons in the field with Dumouriez's forces ---> Total about 6 squadrons, with the regiment being re-staffed after each of the three emigrations. Sources …. Historique du 1er régiment de hussards d'après le manuscrit du commandant Ogier d'Ivry Henri Pierre Georges Ogier d'Ivry Valence : Typ. et lithographie de J. Céas, 1901 Les Hussards – Les Vieux Régiments 1692-1792 Henri Choppin Nancy : Imp. Berger-Levrault et Cie., 1899 The French Emigres in Europe and the Struggle against Revolution, 1789-1814 Philip Mansel London : Macmillan Press, 1999 État militaire de France: pour l'année 1793 – Nouvelle Edition Léon Hennet Paris : Soc, de l'Histoire de la Révolution Français, 1903 État militaire de France: pour l'année 1789 Réné Louis de Roussel Paris : Chez Onfroy Lib., 1789 État militaire de France: pour l'année 1787 Réné Louis de Roussel Paris : Chez Onfroy Lib., 1787 Dix ans d'émigration: souvenirs de François de Cézac, hussard de Berchény, volontaire à l'armée de Condé François de Cézac de Belcayre Paris : Émile-Paul, 1909 La cavalerie pendant la Révolution, du 14 juillet 1789 au 26 juin 1794 : la crise Édouard Desbrière & Maurice Sautai Paris : Berger-Levrault, 1907 |
le Grande Quartier General | 09 Oct 2021 9:09 p.m. PST |
Obviously, snakes don't drink milk. And there is no such thing as an Indian Swamp A |
von Winterfeldt | 10 Oct 2021 1:59 a.m. PST |
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Michman | 10 Oct 2021 7:06 a.m. PST |
Thank you, von Winterfeldt. You are most kind. Here is one more I missed when copy/pasting my last post. Useful, but also charming. L'Abbe Staub had several ancestors in the regiment. Histoire de tous les régiments de hussards – Vol. 1 : 1er hussards André Pierre Staub Fontenay-le-Comte : Robuchon, 1867 And there is L'Amicale du 1er RHP, quite active in assisting research: amicale1rhp.fr You know, I imagine, that they also rebuilt the 15e régiment de cavalerie (ci-devant Royal Allemand) and the 88e régiment d'infanterie (ci-devant Berwick). The erasure of the 4e de hussards (ci-devant Saxe, ex- Conflans) was the exception. And I am not sure why. |
von Winterfeldt | 10 Oct 2021 11:47 a.m. PST |
The ci devant Royal Allemand served well in the Austrian Army for a while, as well as ci-devant Hussards de Saxe. |
Brechtel198 | 10 Oct 2021 1:01 p.m. PST |
The problem with emigre units was that they were officer and NCO-heavy; enlisted men not so much. |
Brechtel198 | 10 Oct 2021 7:25 p.m. PST |
Apparently, part of Royal Allemand stayed loyal also. |
Michman | 11 Oct 2021 4:19 a.m. PST |
Indeed, a "part" of Royal-Allemand stayed in French service, but that part was very, very small …. "the Royal Allemand went over in a body" "The Army during the Revolution 1789-94" Lieutenant-Colonel E. M. Llloyd Journal of the Royal United Service Institution, Volume 39, Issue 1 Whitehall : W. Mitchell, 1895 "Le 6 mai 1792, presque tous les soldats du 15e régiment de cavalerie Royal-Allemand, qui se trouvait en Lorraine, traversèrent la frontière" Les résistances à la révolution François Lebrun Paris : Editions Imago, 1987 "all but about forty members of the Royal-Allemand emigrated in May 1792" "Ambiguous Identities" Thomas E. Kaiser Marie Antoinette: Writings on the Body of a Queen New York : Routledge, 2013 "il n'existe que 40 hommes et 20 chevaux du Royal-Allemand" Kellermann à Servan, ministre de la guerre, 12 juin 1792. quoted in : Les Hussards – Les Vieux Régiments 1692-1792 Henri Choppin Nancy : Imp. Berger-Levrault et Cie., 1899 (also in the Specteur Militaire) ======================= Like the régiment de Berchény-hussards, the régiment de Royal Allemand-cavalerie was initially all foreign, but through the 1780's had become about 1/2 French. In 1785, the proprietorship passed from Landgrave Karl Konstantin von Hessen-Rheinfels-Rotenburg to the prince de Lambesc (dit "le dernier des Guise"), grand écuyer de France – a first cousin and special friend of Marie Antoinette. By 1787, they no longer were located in their traditional casernes of Landau (near Strasbourg) and Hagenau (near Karlsruhe), but instead at Valenciennes near Paris. In 1789, when the regiment was called upon to police demonstrations at the Tuileries, the senior officers were : --- colonel-propietaire maréchal de camp Charles-Eugène de Lorraine, le prince de Lambesc (Versailles 1751 – Vienna 1825), emigrated in 1790, General of Cavalry in the Austrian service --- colonel Jean-Louis Cannac, le baron d'Hauteville (Vevay near Geneva 1741 – Geneva 1815) – resigned 1790/1791 --- lieutenant-colonel Joseph-Antoine, le baron de Reinach-Hirtzbach (Hirtzbach in Alsace 1741 – Hirtzbach 1815) – resigned 1790/1791 --- major Jean-Michel, le chevalier de Mandel (Freiherr Johann Michael von Mandell, Fort-Louis in Alsace 1749 – Jarmeritz in Moravia 1799), promoted colonel 23 Nov 1791, emigrated with the regiment 6 May 1792, General-Major in Austrian service --- major en 2e Sebastian-François, le baron de Speth (Freiherr Sebastian Franz Solan Speth von Zwiefalten, Obermarchtal in Württemberg 1754 – Vienna ? 1812 ) promoted lieutenant-colonel in May 1791, emigrated with the regiment 6 May 1792, Feld-Marschal-Leutnant in Austrian service The officers of the regiment upon immigration and upon entry into Austrian service on 1 Feb 1793 can be found in the "Geschichte des k. und k. 12. dragoner-regiments" – whose lineage the Royal Allemand began. |
von Winterfeldt | 11 Oct 2021 10:36 p.m. PST |
@Michman Great information – you certainly know what you are talking about as your sources evidently show. |
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