"GW strikes down Ebay auction of a non-clone" Topic

Watched this interesting video ( YouTube link ) where a youtuber artist 3d printed and was going to sell a miniature he painted on a youtube video and because he mentioned it could be used as a stand in (it was NOT a copy of any model GW makes), but GW had EBAY cancel his auction.

When are people going to wake up and just dump GW entirely. I sure am glad I never got into playing Warhmammer, and got locked into a company that abuses people who so terribly. I have thousands of miniatures, and I occasionally am able to find time to play a wargame, and I even 3d print miniatures with my 3d resin printer, but for the life of me, I can not figure out why people don't just dump GW, but then again, I dont watch sporting events either, and I cant understand why people pay such great devotion to a sporting team, even if the sporting team members are loosers, and abuse their fans such as been the case with many sporting events here in the USA. People its just ok to drop them. There are other sports, there are other miniature games and manufactures, many of which are quite good, even better, and a lot less expensive to boot.

GW pretends they have intellectual property rights, but guess what! They copied it all. Warhammer is a clone of a game that was co-authored by Gygax and Peren. They did not invent orcs, and goblins, and giants or cyclops, nor did they invent the ideas of the game, They STOLE it from Chainmail, Their store started out selling games like Monopoly, etc and then when D&D came out, they got fabulously rich selling TSR products in Great Britain, then they decided to clone the ideas from Chainmail, and D&D which they were selling, when they made the game Warhammer.

I have not problem with the fact that they copied and cloned TSR's products and popularized Warhammer Games, I even have no problem with the fact that the copied the Aliens movie when they created Space Hulk, or all of the other ideas that they copied for their various games. It how every thing is done, and why we are not still living in the stone age, because when someone has a idea, and its good, then it get copied and improved.

BUT.. when they want to take a Warhammer after everone who plays their games, or even tries to sell a miniature that they painted on Ebay, that doesnt even resemble any of their models, I think its time for GW to go out of business, and for people to move on.

I like watching miniature painting videos on youtube, All of you Youtuber painters, its time to take a hint, and start painting things other than GW products. Paint some Mantic, or Frostgrave/oathmark, or One page Rules, or Hero's Infinite miniatures. or some 15mm or 20mm, some historicals, or give your hand at some Age of Sail ships to paint,

When you sit down to play a wargame, just try something different other than GW, you might find you like it, if not, you can always return and start purchasing your newest army to replace the GW army you bought last week, and now GW has made obsolete, forcing you to spend hours and hours painting a thousand dollars worth of new miniatures.

Why not just…. play a different game, with the obsolete GW models you already have. and be free to mix them in with some other companies models and play a real wargame.

Just a though!

Not a comment on all of the above, just a point of fact – GW did not steal Warhammer from Chainmail. It was a development of Reaper (written by Bryan Ansell), all the guys at GW played Reaper. WH40K, of course, came from Laserburn. Even the same weapons originally. Laserburn was heavily influenced by 2000AD, especially Judge Dredd.

Reaper was a pretty open ruleset, but had a focus on the miniatures produced by Asgard – the Ral Partha offerings were also pretty popular.

It's true that they did well by agreeing an Import deal with TSR, but they also did early deals with Chaosium. That was a gamble, despite what we know now it was no guaranteed thing that D&D would be so big, and, hard to credit now, gaming HP Lovecraft was not an obvious money-spinner – other than expensive Arkham House reprints Lovecraft was not even in print at the time in the UK (it'd be about a decade before there was a paperback reissue of the complete works).

So the guys at GW – when it was just one store – were big fans who took a big chance that paid off. They also imported loads of games that barely sold.

Oh how I love fresh nerd rage. I watched the beginning of the video and thought: "that's the Gargant from the cover of Sons of Behemat." When I looked it up I realized it was not; but it seems to definitely fail the Design Infringement test. To be sure it would have to be litigated and the law will not care about right and wrong.

Games Workshop needs the tag line "Evil gaming company since 1991". All this is probably new to youngin gamers who lack knowledge of history.

As for other games, they would be great if you're a solo player but most of them don't have the market share for pickup games. When in Rome and all that. The list of "not GW games that nobody plays" is quite long. You mentioned Mantic; funny that as their whole business model was alternates for WHFB. They really have everything from GW of the 90's a fantasy naval game, skirmish game, and sports game.

I will go back to bathing in Blood for the Blood God now; the new season of Underworlds looks sweet.

The one thing I do find odd is that no-one representing Michael Moorcock has ever sued GW.

Harlan Ellison would have never have let them off the hook….

big companies have lots of Lawyers to pay, So They prove there worthy by the number of lawsuits they file.

Nothing in Fantasy or Sci Fiction should be copyrighted as its all copies of copies of older stories or legends.

So, play historical.
Nobody can claim IP on George Washington or a Tiger tank.

Wackmole, you have the valid point. Given GW's financial strength, it can litigate longer, and arguably more effectively, than any other miniatures company in existence. I'm sure GW has a staff attorney(s) whose primary role is to protect copyrights, trademarks, and other property rights. EBay is probably a primary hunting ground for such things.

Whether we like it or not is, unfortunately, beside the point. It's simply a corporate fact of life.

I AM disgusted by GW's actions, as well as eBay kowtowing to them.

Both should be sued by the lister for damages for slander, restraint of free trade, and everything else the lawyer(s) can dream up over this immoral and criminal abuse of power.

Thresher well said but it cost Money and time to do that. I'm afraid the original guy doesn't have that.

Look at all the Y-tube creators they offhandedly informed to stop make videos of their IP.

Even a large one Like TTS decided it just wasn't worth it and stop production on his fan favorite series.

It looks to me like it isn't just ebay. After all, Dr. Faust could sue ebay for taking his model off. He might even point out that, by mentioning "Age of Sigmar" he was providing GW with unpaid advertising. One wonders if listing my dining room table on ebay with a note that it could be used for playing Warhammer or Age of Sigmar would generate a similar response. I suppose I'd have to hire a lawyer to defend my position, though.

I look at the GW figures at the store. Clearly, they have very competent sculptors. It used to be that they sculpted things I felt might be worked into my armies. Nowadays, that just isn't the case. Their design people have wandered off down a rabbit hole I don't care to go down.

I have several Two Hour Wargames rules, and somewhere in the first few pages, they have this line or a variant: "There aren't any official figures so play with whatever you have." I guess GW is the reason for this.

Grelber

Until someone can come up with a game system and miniatures to knock them off their perch, nothing is really going to change. Every challenger for the last 20+ years has failed and as mentioned above, most are niche games anyway. GW is the 500 pound gorilla in the room and can pretty much do as they please. I think the current models are overwrought, too expensive, and the rules aren't great, but there's obviously thousands of gamers who think GW is the be all and end all of the hobby. If there was a serious challenger to them they might have to loosen up a bit and be more competitive in various aspects of their business, but at this time there's no need for that.

"The one thing I do find odd is that no-one representing Michael Moorcock has ever sued GW."

Reading Moorcock's attitude to TSR, I don't think he would be concerned.

Back in the Deities & Demigods days you're right – he let Gygax use the Melnibonean Mythos just for the publicity and to boost book sales – thinking RPGs were just a little hobby ting of no great importance.

I wonder if he still thinks the same today ?

He got some GW money back in the 80s.

GW:"We will take IP infringements deadly seriously!"

Estate of Walter M Miller, Jr.:"So . . . about that prayer in the first 'Sisters Of Battle' Codex. . . "

GW:" . . . "

Just play other games. I'd suggest One Page Rules.

Most GW game systems are crap, so I rarely play them (except Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica Imperialis, imo). The miniatures have gotten overly complex and difficult to paint, plus the exorbitant cost of most GW products.

Meh GW is part of my wargaming life from 2nd edition WFB in the 80s, playing 1st edition 40k with my school mates, to working for them in the late 90s, through to playing 40k with my boy when he was younger right up to still collecting them now.
They've always given me a lot of fun throughout my life so people can hate on them if they like (and I totally get some of the reasons why people do) but no doubt someone will be prizing a 40k rulebook, from my cold dead hands, when my end comes.

The issue is not whether GW games are fun to play or not, its about their desire to Destroy 3d printing, Destroy artists, Destroy free commerce, Claim that every fantasy idea is own by them, even though most of what is included in their games, was "BORROWED" from other companies, authors, games, movies etc. and to weild their Hammer as a act of war against anyone who does not have the economic means to fight such a bully!

The issue is not whether GW games are fun to play or not, its about their desire to Destroy 3d printing, Destroy artists, Destroy free commerce, Claim that every fantasy idea is own by them, even though most of what is included in their games, was "BORROWED" from other companies, authors, games, movies etc. and to weild their Hammer as a act of war against anyone who does not have the economic means to fight such a bully!

Holy hyperbole, Batman!
That's just plain silly.

I can not figure out why people don't just dump GW

The minis are good. The 40k background is fun to read or listen to (small parts of it).

You asked.
I have no use for their rules anymore, though.

It's also a wargaming "church" – you can go to any town, find the GW store and there's in-store gaming, and it is then easy to find a club etc.

To continue the analogy try doing that with a "Heresy" – say WRG Ancients 4th Edition – and it won't work.

Anyone could challenge GWs dominance – all they have to do is develop a couple of core games backed up with thousands of models and then open several hundred stores worldwide and staff them with enthusiastic gamers and painters.

There was a time – about the same time that GW opened their first few shops – when TSR could have done this, but they chose not to. TSR was much bigger than GW back when GW just stocked other people's games and figures.

I don't play GW games much, but I can't really criticise them for developing their business – no one else could be bothered, or like Games Centre just thought too small and opened a couple more stores still just selling other people's games.

20thmaine said "It's also a wargaming "church" – you can go to any town, find the GW store and there's in-store gaming, and it is then easy to find a club etc."

I can understand that, and that is most like the reason they remain dominant.

I have never actually seen or been in a official GW Store,I have lived in smaller communities most my life but even when I did live in SLC area, which is larger, I have never seen an official store, but there were independent gaming/comicbook store that did sell and run GW games as well as MTG, dnd, and a host of other games what ever people wanted to play.

GW miniatures have always been rather expensive, Given that GW does have a chain of stores, higher prices are a given, and I have never begrudge them the higher prices, but their prices have kept me from ever being a consumer of their products. However given that nowdays most miniatures currently purchased are via the internet, the prices are kind of excessive, for many.

Still that does not excuse GW behavior towards the Wargaming community, and their current heavy handedness, which has become detrimental to all involved in miniatures, wargaming, collecting, selling in any sort. GW does not have rights to things they did not create, and thier current attempts to destroy, just because they have money to employ a team of lawyers, to try to crush any competition.

GW:"We will take IP infringements deadly seriously!"

Estate of Walter M Miller, Jr.:"So . . . about that prayer in the first 'Sisters Of Battle' Codex. . . "

GW:" . . . "

Oh? Details please. I couldn't Google anything up on that.
I read Canticle for Leibowitz decades ago and thought it was a great and powerful novel.

Still that does not excuse GW behavior towards the Wargaming community, and their current heavy handedness, which has become detrimental to all involved in miniatures, wargaming, collecting, selling in any sort.

You're not helping your case by this hyperbolic exaggeration.
GW is notorious for considering themselves a separate hobby. There is the Games Workshop Hobby, and nothing else exists.
Briefly, they had a nice Ancients miniatures game called Warhammer Fantasy Battles. It did knock the drab overwritten WRG out of the lead. However, GW got bored with WAB, and let it drop.
GW is certainly not detrimental to historical miniatures wargaming, however. They have large successful imitators, like Battlefront and Warlord, who produce slick rule books and tons of miniatures. Due to the very nature of historicals, they cannot get snotty about IP. I'm planning to get very soon the Warlord FIW Provincials and Highlanders. These, by the way are a straight copy of the beautiful Eureka sculpts. The same designs are recently available from Brigade Games.
Battlefront tanks are very nice, but 2-3 times more expensive than comparable metal, resin or plastic tanks. Hey, a Sherman V is a Sherman V. A Tiger 2 Porsche turret is a Tiger 2 Porsche. Go cheap, and you can still play FoW. Battlefront does follow the annoying "codex creep" practice of GW, but old farts like myself largely ignore it.

Unless you insist on playing "not exactly Warhammer but pretty darn close", and refuse to expand your interests, your complaints are invalid.

Heck, GW annoys the crap out of me, but I find their hideously expensive Contrast Paints worth a try. My AWI dragoon horses look amazing, after two quick coats.
Are you also going to claim that GW forces you to buy only Citadel paints? I saw a full display of Army Painter in a shop that also had a full display of Citadel. They're also getting in a full display of Vallejo next week.

I think GW can protect their sculpt style to a certain extent…and certainly where they have created something unique to them.

But goblins, centaurs, Cyclops – that's all drawing on myths and that can't be copyrighted. if you make a cyclops figure that is a direct copy of a GW sculpt then I guess they may sue you, and maybe they'll win.

Want to make your own range of "Ork Boyz" – well there you may be on shaky ground from the start.

Well, if GW think that throwing money after lawyers in-house or otherwise, is going to stuff the 3d printing genie back in the bottle they'll be sorely disappointed and broke. Particularly if they go after stuff that can be reasonably said to be 'in the style of' or 'inspired by'.

And while GW definitely has previous for dubious legal decisions in this case the evil Empire may really be eBay. Ebay, youtube, etc tend to close down first, on receipt of a complaint, and expect the affected person to demonstrate they aren't violating ToS or copyright etc.

As John notes GW do have a tendency to assume they are an 'island' tabletop gaming-wise. While I don't think its done them any particular harm, they've missed out on cashing-in on a number of gaming trends over the years, and it makes them a bit slow and reactive. Though that's hardly unusual in corporate organisations. Their history isn't completely void of innovation and they have got better in recent years as evidenced by their embrace of digital licenses and generally giving customers what they want. But I can easily believe that the march of 3d printing is making them a bit uneasy, but they need to spend money getting ahead of it rather than wasting time writing endless emails to eBay, Etsy, Shapeways, etc.

The seller was using GW's success to sell his product. They had every right to take action.

If a buyer who doesn't know the game was searching based on the game title, why should they have to wade through descriptions to find out if the thing is official or not? That doesn't benefit buyers or eBay and, should the buyer be confused, could lose GW (or someone selling on a GW item) a sale.

The buyer could be purchasing a gift and have no idea whether it's what a collector or gamer would actually want to use.

So, a auto make comes out with a new design, called a mini-van,lets call them DOGDE, and a year or two later other vehicle manufactures also, are also manufacturing vehicles that that on outside appearance look similar to Minivans, lets call them Ford or GMC. Hmmm. I dont recall a lawsuit or anything close to the thing, ever coming out to try to make them cease and desist. Why? because they cant. If Ford or say GMC made a exact copy, yes, that would happen, but their vehicles are different, even though they may be similar in form. All you Defenders of GW are quite confused. I guess the buyer could be thinking they were getting a Dodge minivan when they bought Volkswagon minivan? Obviously, "Porsche was using Dodges success to sell his product, they had every right to take action?"

The seller was using GW's success to sell his product. They had every right to take action.

There are a heck of a lot of small manufactures out there that have been doing just that for sometime – granted they don't tend to mention the Evil Empire by name. Excepting some cases where companies were selling what were all virtually identical knock-offs GW doesn't appear to have been hounding them.

Now if the individual was literally advertising the creation as GW product, which they appear not to have been, eBay and GW would potentially be the least of their troubles – in the UK trading standards would want a word with them. Just mentioning GW in the title is fuzzy – a lot of private and business sellers on eBay include the names of well known games systems in the titles of their items to try and increase the likelihood of people finding that item. And I'm reasonably certain that saying something is compatible with something else would not break any UK consumer regulations (no idea about anywhere else). Also some people might take being accused of intellectual property theft by what sounds like a rather generic and non-specific 'threatening' letter as deformation!

GW has well publicised previous for sudden spasmodic crack-downs on bits of its community, which usually appear more successful in annoying people than actually stopping the activity they are aiming to!

vehicles that that on outside appearance look similar to Minivans

Poor example. If someone sells a wing mirror and puts Dodge in the title, even if that mirror IS compatible with a Dodge vehicle, buyers shouldn't have to check the small print to see if it's a Dodge product.

Just mentioning GW in the title is fuzzy

Exactly. But, unless the wording in the title was specifically "Compatible with…", it could easily look they are passing it off as official. That's regardless of the description: imagine selling a box with Kellogg's Corn Flakes in big letters and a small caveat saying they are similar to Kellogg's on the back.

Why wouldn't a business go in heavy handed to make a fuzzy situation favour them over a competitor using their product name?

Stop bashing a company just because they're successful. They don't owe their competition anything!

That's regardless of the description: imagine selling a box with Kellogg's Corn Flakes in big letters and a small caveat saying they are similar to Kellogg's on the back.

That's rather blatant miss-selling, which I don't believe is quite what happened in this case AFAIK.

Why wouldn't a business go in heavy handed to make a fuzzy situation favour them over a competitor using their product name?

It wasn't exactly Warlord on their official website! Now you may well be in sketchy territory using a trade marked name, IDK though 'compatible with x' would seem fine. And assuming the reporting is accurate and that's an 'if' there's heavy handed and accusing someone of a crime they quite clearly weren't committing. The letter is possibly meaningless but what individual is going to take that chance – particularly if the person involved derives any significant portion of their livelihood from their Youtube and eBay activities? And I'd very much doubt that income stretches to even budget legal advice. Though the screen cap of the letter seems to suggests it is itself a rather amateur affair and probably being spammed out by the dozen (seems it may be contract job). I'm actually now mildly curious what jurisdiction this is taking place in. I'd be interested to know if its the UK since libel law here can be pretty brutal and you don't get a free pass just because its a 'legal letter'!

I like Games Workshop products, and the staff at my local store are great guys.

Games Workshop hasn't shut down a lot of companies that are making clear knockoffs. So, are they so evil . . . or are they just carefully doing what their lawyers say they need to do to ensure their intellectual property is legally respected?

Interesting to see the reactions to this issue, but, otherwise, big woof. Now, I gotta order some more Marines.

GW deserves all the scorn it can get just for dumping BFG, which is in my humble opinion the best product they ever put out.

That said, the price is ridiculous and their stances nauseating to me, guaranteeing I won't buy anything from them in the future. Always good to see them get people to drop hundreds or thousands of dollars into something then invalidate it with the wave of a hand and told not to bring it to their stores anymore.

That hasn't happened for a good while now; if anything I wish they WOULD drop old units from various codexes at this point. The Marine codex for example is ridiculous with the number of entries in it and could use some serious pruning even if it meant a number of old Marine models I have painted on the shelf were no longer viable.

Also, looking at the pics in the video the figure DOES look very similar to one of the build options for the Sons of Behemat (ironically not the one they compare it to) and was marketed as an option for the same. I could see why they (GW) might get their knickers in a twist. Now the mantic Giants for example are also very nice but do not resemble the GW versions at all, so they are okay.

You might as well get a gun and start robbing banks then

"GW deserves all the scorn it can get just for dumping BFG, which is in my humble opinion the best product they ever put out."

Don't kid yourself – They were on track to ruining BFG with expansions and creep. The thing that kept it great was that it stayed small.

BFG?
Big friendly giant?
Roald Dahl will be spinning in his grave.
I hate GW so much,first come across them in the early to mid 80s by around 1990 i gave up on them when I got some poor shop assistant to admit that tiny fig was more expensive that that squad of guy's cos in the "game" that one guy was so powerful; and i didn't go back.
Look if your cool with all the issues pricing,dirty tactics and all that general scumbagery or just have money to burn fill your boots.

Oh hang on I did go back!
Someone who seemed itelegent told me they had sorted themselves out and so I had a punt on necromunda that was a very expensive and silly mistake on my part.
I'm such an idiot.

"cos in the "game" that one guy was so powerful"

If anyone ever mentions Magic: the gathering, run a mile.