"Reaction To The New UK, US And Australia Military Pact" Topic

"Taiwan and Japan have welcomed a new three-way nuclear submarine pact between the US, UK and Australia aimed at combating China – saying it is necessary to provide 'security' for the region.

The countries are both threatened by Beijing and North Korea respectively, and said the new naval alliance dubbed AUKUS would help keep the region 'free and open' and increasing 'peace and security'.

Boris Johnson, Joe Biden and Scott Morrison were also careful not to mention China when they announced the new pact – which will see Australia provided with its first ever fleet of at least eight nuclear subs – on Wednesday night, though made their intentions clear with references to 'democracy, freedom of navigation, and security'…"

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China Fires Back at New Western Military Alliance. Says Australia Could Become The Target Of A 'Nuclear Strike' In The Event Of A Nuclear War

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Armand

France are mightily miffed and EU disappointed they weren't kept in the loop on it.

Why are they calling it a new alliance – we've been allies with Britain since Federation in 1901 and with the US since WWII.

I have no doubt Australia would be nuked in a war even if as a "US back off or this happens to you" type thing,

The Chinese certainly are hopping mad, and it appears Macron and the French are too.

Oh well, I suppose the latter will get over it.

Not sure the former will though, which is a plus.

No big deal.good for Australia and get over it ,everyone else.

Doubt that France will look kindly on any further attempts by UK to modify the Brexit agreement (that was so good and so well negotiated that the UK tried to modify it almost before the ink was dry)

Given the tonnage the Chinese navy has launched over the last decade, the plans for 8 new ballistic missile subs, and attempts to appropriate large areas of other peoples territory and international waters crying about a new Cold War arms race seems more than a little hollow.

Doubt that France will look kindly on any further attempts by UK to modify the Brexit agreement (that was so good and so well negotiated that the UK tried to modify it almost before the ink was dry)

More wrong with the government than the treaty and the treaty, despite the best efforts of the EU, is rubbish (and may even be unworkable)!

France was ineptly handled in this, though frankly I'm not really sure the EU per say has much to do with this. NATO members may rightly have a thing or two to say if they weren't kept in the loop.

Australia Admits War With China Is Possible Over Taiwan

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China Enters Taiwan Air Defence Zone With 10 Warplanes For The 15th Time This Month

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Armand

The French really aren't happy…
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Yes, but when the french intrude themselves in someone's affairs, it' all right, uh? How many projects were derailed because of French Grandeur mania? I'm so old to remember the Tonal, when Paris pushed away Bonn's gvt from an europesn attack copter , in favour of their Tiger Project,the Aussies bought a sqn of them, and severely regretted it, as the spanish.Do you remember when Paris retreated from the Leopard 2 Project for building the Leclerc, so problematic that Sarkosy had to recall Army's HQ about it's bad efficiency?

Yes of course sure it is question of French Grandeur mania, tttsss, fed up with this kind of antifrench mania one minute, what about the Yuropeean smallness and meanness, first error was France has forgotten lessons from past relationships with anglo-saxon perfidy and duplicity, to defend her own interest it is time for France to leave all these false-allied, this disgusting NATO organization with such Yuropeean partners ready to do buisness with China including until to renounce to key-security interest and economic sectors and still remaining with cowardice under US shield and crying after to the neoconialism and imperialism against interventions against islamism but very happy that French Army did the job as vanguard to protect their bourgeois way-of-life, definitively the French interests are not the Yuropeean interests
when I saw in other thread than the german Von-der-thing speaking in Strasbourg in the name of Yurop about the Pacific we reach the nonsense, but??? Wait a minute, please remember me which country in Europe is territorially in the Pacific with his fleet and army, ridiculous
France should find true allied, renforcing links with India and others countries and partners around the world than "Yurop" or such anglo-saxons countries

The French withdrew their Ambassador from the US, if I understand the reports correctly. First time that has ever happen. Hmmm ?

Lilian, the Naval Group had already been warned, at least three times, that if it did not comply with the 60% Australian work content requirement, and keep costs rises under control, that the project would be cancelled. That point was raised in 2017, and has been an issue ever since. I believe the first contract change proposal submitted by the company was for an increase in some costs and reductions in Australian content "for technical reasons"- to be fair a common practice when contracts have been awarded, these days, but still one that immediately creates tensions between CASG and the contractor.

Raising French-owned companies in Australia, with flown-in French workers to do the work, or having President Macron promise jobs to French workers when those jobs were supposed to have been done in Australia, did not meet that primary requirement.

As for bad Allies- look up Mururoa Atoll or "Rainbow Warrior sinking". We still remained friends with France despite them. Perhaps we should have reacted the way France is currently acting?

Your president has had a dummy spit because he was trying to buy votes with jobs, which were never supposed to be done in France- and those promised jobs have now disappeared. If he loses that election he will probably blame Australia for the loss.

The Australian government has made a complete mess of the new submarines project (as usual). If anyone should feel insulted then it should be Japan, after the way their submarine offer was dealt with. Save your anger for Naval Group- if they had dealt with the contract more honestly, and taken the government's warnings seriously, then they would not have been sacked.

Dal Gavan the great irony about your comment about French fly in workers is that the Chinese practice that very methodology in Australia and that this particular Australian government made it easier for Chinese to import Chinese labour in 2015 under China Australia FTA.

It also goes to show that Australia could buy a 1000 subs and it all means nothing when the Chinese own a large chunk of the country including key capabilities that keep ouur economy afloat.

In any case US has been doing a terrible job of its relationship with European NaaTO Allies. They thought Biden would better than Trump but he has already dropped the ball in a major way twice (end of Afghan evacuation and now dub deal).

Tango our current defence minister is a hardline right wing fascist who would love nothing more than go to to war.

Government's rhetoric has got a lot more insane since he took over defence portfolio including hints and discussions about Australia going to war with China on our own.

Malaysia and Indonesia have criticised the sub buy whilst Singapore supports it.

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Should be noted Australia is generally not trusted in most of SE Asian region and is viewed as a colonial/US enforcer.

Raising French-owned companies in Australia, with flown-in French workers to do the work, or having President Macron promise jobs to French workers when those jobs were supposed to have been done in Australia, did not meet that primary requirement.

Hadn't heard that before – hardly strange clauses these days, particularly in the EU, and should not have been alien to the French. Macron does have trouble at home, so it may be the 'flouncing out in a huff' is for French public consumption.

ROUWPBTS, the flown in workers were going to be technical specialists that would help set up and train Australian workers. That's fair enough and common practice. It's also cheaper than sending them all to France to learn. But the problem was the numbers that were supposedly needed. Once both sides start questioning the others' motives then things go down the tubes very quickly.

The jobs promise to French workers was in an article, by Gottslieben from memory, about a month/six weeks ago. Not confirmed, though he's pretty accurate for a journalist, and it does explain Macron's hissy fit.

It's not all one-way traffic, either. CASG shifting goal posts is a common complaint from contractors.

Cheers.

PS Gottslieben's article was in The Australian.

I recall reading about significant price increases in the project, and that the government wasn't happy about those. Happens in virtually ALL military projects.

"The French withdrew their Ambassador from the US, if I understand the reports correctly. First time that has ever happen".

Oh, that is really a big worry. LOL

Granted, I appreciate the French contribution to our freedom in getting out from under the boot of British rule back in the day, but that was a very, very long time ago.

If they were helping us again now, domestically, from D.C.'s oppressive rule, that would be a bigger issue, but that is not the case.

Just the French throwing a tantrum, which is a bit undignified, and really of little concern.

Sadly, Macron and the French government seem to be more interested in supporting the Chinese than in opposing them.

Of course, that is NOT purely a French issue, since others in the EU and here in the USA are doing the same, and/or adopting their oppressive tactics against their citizens, like the Chinese are doing too. A pity we can't seem to wake them up to the threat they pose, or that those at home pose as well to our personal liberty.

CASG shifting goal posts is a common complaint from contractors.

I would have said also goes with the territory for major public contracts, not just defence, pretty much anywhere.

The other issue with public contracts is that it doesn't matter what any politician promise, regardless of what side of the contract they are on, its what's in black and white in the contract. I'd assume if this is more than just a political pee'ing contest contract lawyers will be deployed. Assuming some of the 'accusations' in the Australian media are true it look like the whole program was on somewhat disastrous course from day one.

Somewhat less diplomatically high-profile the UK government body in charge of the country's nuclear legacy so badly screwed up its contracting and it ended up paying out huge sums to multinational joint ventures companies a few years back. Personally I've been on the shop-floor of a major public contract which was low balled with the seemingly deliberate intention to change control their way to profit…

Thresher the French got screwed especially given Australan defence minister told them it was all OK 2 weeks before new deal.

We are talking $90 USD billion dollars here after all. You don't just scrap that like it was an order for a latte.

Worst thing is in Australia there was no public debate.

But then our democracy is beyond flawed and everything is secret these days including trade agreements and who pays the (now ex) Autorney General's legal bills over his attempts to stifle media freedom.

Now with the French Ambassador leaving the US. Are we going to have to start calling French Fries = Freedom Fries again ? 🍟🍟🍟

Of course.

Or, we could call them Belgian Fries to really them off. I'm surprised the EU head in Brussels hasn't already demanded this, but perhaps they don't want to risk any more defections from the flock.

Arealdeadone, you don't have public debates over Defence Policy otherwise north gets done. We are not run by the socialist pandering Greens.

French having a 'Hissy Fit'. Understandable… but, with more reading about the French 'Deal'… just not 'going to go anywhere', anytime soon.
Should show a bit of light on Brexit.

Whether Aukus will work?

UK should have had some new Nuke power plants well under way in another French Deal… now, partly Our fault… 'costs' just growing and anti-nuke arguments.. but 'same as'.

French govt are the worst. Close to full on Commies. French people are ing awesome, standing up to Islamic Jihadism and now Covid totalitarianism in the last few years. I gained a lot of respect for French people the last 6-8 years.

"But then our democracy is beyond flawed and everything is secret these days including trade agreements and who pays the (now ex) Autorney General's legal bills over his attempts to stifle media freedom."

National security is an exception IMO. It shouldn't be up for public debate, it should be a cabinet (NOT "national cabinet" BUT ACTUAL CABINET) decision. The whole COVID thing is ridiculous. ScoMo should stand the up immediately and remind the States that Fed Law trumps their ed up "Public Health" decrees. He's just wiping his ass with our constitution right now and so are the Premiers.

Inasmuch as Australia approached the US about submarines after the French project encountered substantial cost overruns and delays -- and the hacking of shipbuilder DCNS -- it seems a bit petulant for the French to blame the US.

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So why don't we invite the Canadians and New Zealand into this little party and call it the New Anglican Confederation?

"Now with the French Ambassador leaving the US. Are we going to have to start calling French Fries = Freedom Fries again ? 🍟🍟🍟"

Maybe they can work with the Chinese communist and come up with something? French Wontons perhaps?

Arealdeadone, you don't have public debates over Defence Policy otherwise north gets done. We are not run by the socialist pandering Greens.

No, you have a public debate over nuclear energy which includes nuclear propelled submarines.

Public debate is dead in Australia – this same government signed a Free Trade Agreement with China in 2015 that totally screwed Australia's sovereignty as well as allowing Chinese to flood their workers in.

Note the details of agreement were secret prior to it being signed and there was no cost-benefit analysis released (and possibly not done).

They're not patriots, they're scoundrels who look to defence posturing and self aggrandisement to take away attention from other more pressing matters at home.

(And I've voted Liberals in the past, as well as Green and Labour. These days I go independent simply cause Liberal and ALP are essentially the same and the Greens are wannabe ALP).

Maybe they can work with the Chinese communist and come up with something? French Wontons perhaps?

Oh I love Chinese Food !!!!🍚🍣🍱🥢 Well any Asian food really …

Why the French matter:

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EU now demanding answers and an apology.

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This sub deal has actually potentially damaged Australian trade talks with EU.

And given Australia's largest threat is economic exposure to China, the sub deal could now endanger attempts at diversification and reducing dependence on China.

That's hilariously ironic if you ask me.

UK-France defence summit cancelled due to AUKUS

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So Britain has actually scored a couple of own goals:

1. Trashing Anglo-French defence cooperation which has in the past been lucrative for both eg SEPECAT Jaguar or the helo deal that involved the Lynx, Gazelle and Puma.

2. Potentially committing to a Taiwanese war even if its against British interests to do so.

I also think it's going to result in British forces being spread too thin and that's going to end up in capability reductions just like it has for US forces.

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China's military has an Achilles' heel: Low troop morale

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Armand

That article is one of the most idiotic one's I've read.

Senkakus are disputed and claimed by China. Chinese submarine waving a Chinese flag is a sign of sovereignty not surrender.

If I go and wave my flag in your backyard with a rifle slung on my shoulder and a pistol in my hand, is that a sign of surrender?

Also ICBMs being a sign of low morale – US and Russia also use vast amounts of ICBMS. They are cheaper than a SLBM (due to not needing a whole submarine) and also act as nuclear sponges to soak up nuclear warheads that could instead be targeted at your cities or other key infrastructure.

As for unamnned systems being used due to lack of soldiers- again idiotic, By that definition US, Israel and Turkey have extremely low morale and inability to recruit soldiers.

It's proof the mainstream media is full of clueless morons who should go back to focusing on whatever the Karadashians are doing.

Chinese troop morale may be low but we certainly don't have any evidence presented here except wishful thinking.

Worrying things are UK reliance on French Maritime Surveillance… also co-operation on migrants and Fishing disputes. BUT… France has always done what pleased France, anyway. Will blow over eventually.
As for EU… also two words. Britain HAD very good trading with Australia and NZ… then the 'Common Market'… 'scuppered' those deals.. for their, 'mutual' (?), benefit…

The eurpean Defence work in aviation… was a big money spinner… Jaguar, Lynx, Gazelle, Puma… and Tornado, Eurofighter/Typhoon. but much of UK Defence industry has been in a down spiral for many years… much cause being the EU insistance on 'competition' among 'partners'.
UK Govt's not allowed to 'bolster' industries with contracts… but… 'stangely enough', 'others' would.

Much 'european' weaponry is getting past it's 'life', anyway. UK seems to look more to getting US stuff… Apaches, F35… 'IF' we can afford it… and a 'deal' might help to pay for some new kit! We shall see.

No … nuclear powered submarines are a defence issue no matter what you think. Defence issues are not for public debate. And that article about low moral amongst cChinese troops is actually pretty accurate.

Chicoms suck> the last time they went into combined arms combat was 'Nam '79-'88. They go their asses handed to em. So much for Wolf Warrior propaganda. I saw that movie. The dude saves Africa, kills like 1000 dudes and strangles an American at the end. At the end there's a script that says that the Chinese goverment will protect any Chiese citizen worldwide and the 90% Chinese crowd in the Sydney cinema cheered…

It's proof the mainstream media is full of clueless morons who should go back to focusing on whatever the Karadashians are doing.

Bingo ! Don't forget JLo, Ellen, The View, etc.

Chicoms suck> the last time they went into combined arms combat was 'Nam '79-'88.

Yes and both sides claimed "victory". The Chicoms need more training in Combined Arms. And they are not the only force out there that has that weakness …

Just to remember this conflict -'79 Sino-Viet War – link

Chicoms suck> the last time they went into combined arms combat was 'Nam '79-'88. They go their asses handed to em.

You really should learn about history before spouting things:

a. Chinese-Vietnam was not 1979-88. It was one month in 1979 only (17 February – 16 March). There were other border clashes.

Vietnam-Chinese war was deliberately limited in scope. ChiComs never even deployed their air force.

It was a badly conceived punitive raid designed to punish Vietnam for invading Cambodia.

It was deliberately limited because the Chicoms didn't want to aggravate Vietnam's main ally, the USSR with whom they already had a serious feud.

b.) Yes there was skirmishing, artillery barrages and some significant border clashes between 1979-1988. We have no idea how they really went as both Communist sides claimed victory and huge enemy casualties.

Again there was no full commitment of Chinese or Vietnamese troops. Air forces were not used and very often neither were regular forces.

c.) The Vietnamese did lose Battle of Laoshan in 1984 to the Chinese – this was probably the last major action (again this stuff is so badly covered in west that who the hell knows).

The Chinese also won the Johnson South Reef skirmish but did have considerable advantage in firepower.

People should also learn simple mathematics:

2021-1979 = 42 years ago. Even 1988 was 33 years ago.

Every single Vietnamese and Chinese soldiers that fought in 1979 and most that fought up to 1988 are now a retiree (and given living standards possibly quite dead).

We have no idea how good the Chinese are.

A lot happens in 33-42 years.

We also have no idea how good western forces or Russians are in high intensity peer conflict conflict. Only NATO force that has had that kind of experience in last 20 years is Turkey courtesy of conventional fighting in Syria and whatever experience they gleaned from last Nagorno Karabakh War.

Western forces have been engaged in the type of warfare that actually degrades high intensity combat capabilities and in most cases, most troops don't even engage with the enemy and live in mega bases with all the mod cons of home.

We have no idea how an American/Chinese/Russian would cope if it was subject to continuous and accurate artillery bombardment.

We have no idea how American/Chinese/Russian forces logistics would handle impact of battlefield interdiction on supply lines.

The only thing that is known about the Chinese is that they have been trying hard to modernise. Whether that is successful or not is anyone's guess and short of a full scale war we won't know.

One lesson needs to be heeded: in the 1930s the West underestimated Japan, while in 1950 they underestimated the Chinese.

Both underestimations caused considerable and arguably unnecessary western deaths.

Recently Armenia (and the west and Russia) underestimated Azerbaijan and Armenia lost a war as a result.

The west underestimated Russia's intervention in Syria causing western supported rebels and jihadis to be defeated.

nuclear powered submarines are a defence issue no matter what you think.

Australians should have a say in this matter. And they had a say in the past even if it was via protest (remember M-X missile tests that Hawke promised the Americans).

A democracy where both major parties have the same policies and there is no real say to the people is not a democracy.

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Personally I suspect this sub plan is merely to open the path to nuclear weapons acquisition for Australia. Current government cares little for international treaties such as NPT.

Two things make me think that:

1. Nuclear reactors using weapons grade fissile material.

2. Potential basing of nuclear armed American submarines in Australia.

It's not a far stretch to say: "hey Aussies, we already have American nukes, why not have our own?"

It's a strategy designed to eliminate opposition by making minor changes. At some stage so many minor changes have been made that the major change is only a formality as it was already effectively in place.

Both sides of politics used it to destroy Australian industry, privatise government services and limit Australian worker's conditions and rights to bargaining (the "deliberate architecture" as ex-Finance Minister Matthias Corman described it).

Not necessarily related but it shows how much the US really regards Britain – Biden has shot down Boris Jonhson's idea of a bilateral trade treaty between UK and USA:

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No comment … or I'll be in the 🐶🏠 … But one can use their imagination.

Why Is The U.S. Not Providing Nuclear Submarines To South Korea And Japan?

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Armand

Oz could get a GREAT deal for cheap, quick build subs… from China. Pretty sure they would 'pull the stops out' to facilitate…

South Korea and Japan have different priorities.

It's already evident Japan views Australia as the cannon fodder for any East Asian war – a month before AUKUS, the Japanese defence minister has already called on Australia to take lead role in defence.

So the country with the 3rd largest economy on the planet and 126 million people expects the 12th largest with 25 million people to lead the defence against China.

There's something sick about that but the idiots in Canberra are relishing the role and have been trying to do this ever since PM John Howard called Australia the US' deputy sheriff back in 2002.

Australians also enjoy nothing more than dying in other people's wars – Boer War, WW1, 1919 Russian intervention, WW2, Korea, Malaya, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq etc etc. It's a national pastime!

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As for South Korea, they have more issues with Japan than China! Their goals aren't in competition with China either. The South Koreans are chummy with America but also gladly cooperate with Russians as well eg main South Korean long range SAM was developed with assistance from Russia.

So the South Koreans are pursuing their own agenda and basically cleverly using every single great/super power to their advantage.

ADZ… in UK, Boris is often viewed as a 'bit of a joke'…
and 'thrives' on it… (The zip line!). BUT He 'Tries'… and with Brexit / Covid, seems to pay off.
Biden… not My Leader, but seems to be a player who is very reluctant to 'commit' as position 'weak' and trying to consolidate. Maybe trying to build up a good 'hand'…
But, Boris for Me!

The 'Special Relationship' was a 'Buzz Phrase' in the Regan / Thatcher years. It does not exist… 'Politics' is 'real'. CAN STILL WORK THOUGH! Everyone needs it to.

We have no idea how good the Chinese are.

A lot happens in 33-42 years.

Well we know how well they preform against their unarmed moslem citizens.

Australians also enjoy nothing more than dying in other people's wars – Boer War, WW1, 1919 Russian intervention, WW2, Korea, Malaya, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq etc etc. It's a national pastime!

That may be true. But many like me greatly respect their service, etc. And at great cost of their lives in those wars.

Thanks!

Armand