"Would you game civil disorder?" Topic

Recently, there have been regular reports – with video – of clashes between rival groups of (ahem) protesters. These are often armed with 'legal' weapons: skateboards, frozen bottles of water, bear repellent cannisters, etc. There was even a guy in a mobility cart zipping around in one recent riot.

Would you ever game this type of combat?

* yes
* no
* only in sci-fi
* not modern, only historical
etc.

I have already, several times

No

Sure. It could make a good convention game. Give each player a different group with varied objectives, that may or may not mesh with the objectives of other players on the same side.

City police squad 1 = prevent anyone from crossing 2nd street.
City police squad 2 = prevent anyone from crossing 4th street. (oops, somebody got garbled orders)
Sheriff dept = escort a VIP to 1st street
Protestors for Peace, Protestors for Violence, Protestors for Justice, etc = occupy different buildings
Rioters for Peace, Rioters for Violence, Rioters for Justice, etc = damage different buildings (yeah, the same buildings the protestors are interested in)
Business owners, reporters, civilians (folks trying to get home from work, etc), criminal gangs, etc can all get in on the fun.

No, I'm pretty happy with my Vikings, colonials, and Greeks.

"not modern, only historical, etc." Does that mean gaming the Nika Riots at the Hippodrome in Constantinople back in 532 AD? If so, I might participate if somebody else provided the figures and scenery.

Grelber

I have already done so as well

Yes.

Yes, but not contemporary,
only historical, fantasy, or Sci/fi

Yes. I have Spectre SAS miniatures painted up as old men wearing red hats synonymous with the last party heavily armed neighborhood protectors. Got my eyes out for protesters miniatures that could represent the wokies to fight against.

+1 Stryderg. Sounds like a great game.

Would surely do 20's Germany, or VBCW. Rioting not really interested in that.

Grelber, I say the Greens are superior to the Blues and I'll bash anyone who says otherwise!

Oh sure.
What is a zombie game, but civil disorder?
IRA vs Black and Tans? With flying saucers interfering?
Corleone vs Barzini?

I'm planning a Paxton Boys vs Philadelphia Associators game. It matters not that there was no real battle.

I feel that I am living it at the moment.

yes, have, can be a hoot. The multiple victory conditions are a great way to do it. Have been in a game with three or more opposing factions all made the "win" victory marks

No.

Have done historical.

Have, historical – "Chicago Chicago"

Yes, I did a game of the Peterloo Massacre for a Euro History class (10th grade). Individual characters victory conditions were written to guarantee violence. GAME victory conditions were determined by press accounts: the two dullest students, both girls, were assigned to be reporters, and to turn in, each separately, an account of what happened as homework the next day. Needless to say, the reporting bore small relation to the truth of what transpired -- but it was the written record of "facts."

Chicago, Chicago, yes.

There's also UATWMF, an early S&T game.

I've got enough more or less armed SF civilians to fill a wretched hive of scum and villainy--or fight a block war. Not happy with rules yet.

Not opposed to historical settings, you understand, but I try to give each set of armies a different focus, and SF is 1:1 skirmish and RPG. Could have done WWII instead, with Maquis or Werewolves, but SF is more colorful.

UATWMF…..I always thought that was a myth…..

Yes

Yeah, planning on gaming the Charlottesville riot/protests.
Antifa vs. the Unite the Right movement.

No

There was quite an interesting article in The Courier Volume 5 No 4 discussing how to model civil unrest-

"The Riot Wargame" by Jim Wallman

Jim Wallman has a web site (I guess it is the same Jim) where you can download a set of rules for free (I've not tried them).

"Civil Disorder" – Civil disturbance in a mythical modern big city

jimwallman.org.uk/free-wargames

Yes have done historical

No, it existed, I used to have a copy.
link

This game took as its subject the student demonstrations at Columbia University and was originally published in the 11 March 1969 number of the Connection, a supplement to the Columbia Daily Spectator, near the date of the first anniversary of the riots. Jim Dunnigan, then aged 25 and described in the game's "designer's notes" as a history major in the School of General Studies, had already designed 1914 and was at the time working on Origins of World War II, but was asked to take time out to work on this design.

The game is for two players, Radicals and Administration. The map features eleven tracks for each of the political subgroups in the game (e.g. Black Students, Moderate Strikers, Alumni, Harlem Community). The objective for the players is to have the most influence, determined by the positions of markers on these tracks, for their side by the end of the twelfth turn. During a turn, players deploy abstracted units representing their political leverage onto the tracks to 'attack' the other player's units (as tokens, Dunnigan suggests small pieces of paper colored red or marijuana seeds for the Radicals, and blue bits of paper or capsules of Seconal for the Administration) and so move the markers towards their 'end' of the tracks. The 24 Contingency Cards add some randomness by taking or giving units of wherewithal to one player or another.

SPI sold photocopies of this game supplement for a couple of years after its start. They are hard to find now and command a high price.

Brigade Games and TVAG both sell Gangs of New York figures, and rules.
You can also buy figures and rules for Germany 1919-21 for some Freikorps action.
Junta can be run as a miniatures game.

Frequently.

Historical – contemporary through ancients
SciFi

Never done mobs in fantasy as a battle. I've done civilians defending against a threat in fantasy, but I consder that not to be civil disorder.

I've also run professional tabletop wargames in contemporary what-if.

No – I cannot make the leap into this type of game given current events.

Maybe with a Sci-fi or historical theme. But even then, I don't much care about civilian mob clashes in any era.

The only time I have is when a fellow gamer put on a game using Foundry's gang wars figures – cops, black gangs, white gangs, etc., etc. It was interesting but not something in which I would collect and paint.

Jim

I've long dreamt of gaming the 1856 Baltimore election riots. Ethnic/religious/political gangs, organized around the local volunteer fire stations fought for days leaving 2 dozen dead. At one point a Democratic gang dispersed police using a cannon.

I've done it for real at work. So….no.

I would consider something historical from the black powder period or earlier.

Must admit I can see no attraction in such games. No overaching command and control on one or both sides so liitle to occupy the mind and hence entertain.

Only historical riots in the black powder era when the authorities could deploy smartly uniformed soldiers to quell the disturbances.

I have had civil disorder in the settings of science fiction role-playing games, but I have never gamed civil disorder per se. I probably never will, but only because it would be entering a new genre requiring a lot of new miniatures, specifically civilians.

I do somewhere have a copy of the map-and-counters game Battle of Seattle, based on the 1999 WTO protests, but I haven't played it.

I'm thinking several broad options. Flat-out riots ought to have some potential for solo gaming, with the player being on the side of Order. Another possibility is a club game with several factions of irregulars with different and possibly conflicting goals. But you also have insurrectionary warfare which is almost a colonial wars game--one side with huge numbers, but the other with firepower and discipline. And the same figures and terrain work for guerilla warfare--bombings, assassinations and which of these civilians am I allowed to shoot?

Not my preferred small horse & musket battles, but there are a number of things which can be done.

No. Too close from home. Might live it sooner or later, no fun.

Must admit I can see no attraction in such games. No overaching command and control on one or both sides so liitle to occupy the mind and hence entertain.

Once again a condescending sneer towards people who do not play with their toy soldiers properly or correctly.

I agree with John the OFM

I've long dreamt of gaming the 1856 Baltimore election riots. Ethnic/religious/political gangs, organized around the local volunteer fire stations fought for days leaving 2 dozen dead. At one point a Democratic gang dispersed police using a cannon.

As I suggested above, check out Brigade Games and TVAG for their Gangs of New York figures and rules. TVAG even has downloadable files for buildings.

Google "The Battle of Berkeley"

Wolfhag

This is not new. At the 1969 MFCA war-game convention there was just such a "protest" style game. I have done games based on the draft riot in "Gangs of New York, using those figures noted above plus some ACW regulars. Also Freikorps action in Berlin and Junta run as a miniatures game. Would John Brown's protest against slavery in Harper's Ferry qualify?

Take a look at By Will Alone 2007game.bywillalone.org

I've run games where 'civil disorder' was part of the scenario, whether set in the ancient world, SF, the Napoleonic period, or current.
I even have my 'Hell and Uncivil Disorder' rules which cover such things as mobs, demagogues, NGOs etc.

But in all seriousness I can quite see why people wouldn't want to play such games, there are probably scenarios I would find too close to home for comfort.

Once again a condescending sneer towards people who do not play with their toy soldiers properly or correctly.

Yeah, but at least it was grossly inaccurate.

Because command and control in a mob is not built on a simple, hierarchical template it tends to be much more complex than in a military organization. When designing professional wargames (ones for customers who want to use it to improve their preparation for or performance) for such an event, the two most complex bits to put in are C2 and morale.

That reminds me … I haven't run Rise of the Machines 1812 – The Luddite Rebellion in a while. Time to bust out some looms …

PDF link
inlgames.com/rotm.htm

Historical perhaps – there's a variant of SOBH for Ancient period riots for example.

And I think I've got a copy of "Riot" from Irregular Miniatures. Maybe.

But in all seriousness I can quite see why people wouldn't want to play such games, there are probably scenarios I would find too close to home for comfort.

I have the opposite problem – the modern fighting often pits groups against each other where I like neither side! Tactically interesting, but somewhat repugnant…

I would participate in such a game and even enjoy running something like it but don't have the figures or building models.

I think for most gamers I know the premise could be applied to the current gaming environment and would represent an opportunity for ironic social commentary and tongue in cheek play acting. Which RPGers and to a lesser extent, miniatures gamers, bring to the table already.

I have the opposite problem – the modern fighting often pits groups against each other where I like neither side! Tactically interesting, but somewhat repugnant…

I suppose you could look on the bright side, at least you don't mind who loses.