"Identity, Patriotism, and Education" Topic

OK Bill, what was the issue with 'Gilda' – I know it should have been Gildas but why snip it ?

I think you guys are confusing debates over values and culture with politics -- which is, as they ay, downstream from culture. The linked websites are "disgusting"? Only if you cannot abide being challenged, by peaceful argument. I do indeed tend to reject what is in THE GUARDIAN, but will read what is posted from it in order to debate and refute it. OC, you should try to do the same. This is not the place to debate the COVID policies, but there ARE millions of folks who disagree with you about some points. (For the record, I was vaccinated asap and think most people should be.)

OC, yes, I do game the "American Resolution", and have Cowpens set up and mid-game right now. It is my favorite conflict to study and to game.

And things like balancing the needs of states and the nation -- federalism, properly understood -- are an essential part of it. So the OP here is quite relevant.

I'm sorry, but the article is heavy on opinion and light, very light, on historical fact. It also appears to be religious based and since the United States is a secular country, with a secular government, attempting to insert one's religious beliefs into US history is nothing but nonsense and historical distortion.

And this isn't the first time this has happened on the American Revolution forum.

Religion is a personal matter and should remain that way.

The United States has a secular government but has been, historically, very far from a secular culture. Would you OMIT religion from our history? Have you READ MLK's Letter from the Birmingham Jail? It is plainly written BY a Christian minister and addressed TO Christian ministers, and makes its arguments fully within the Christian tradition. And similar examples abound.

But more basically, I am in Birmingham because injustice is here. Just as the prophets of the eighth century B.C. left their villages and carried their "thus saith the Lord" far beyond the boundaries of their home towns, and just as the Apostle Paul left his village of Tarsus and carried the gospel of Jesus Christ to the far corners of the Greco Roman world, so am I compelled to carry the gospel of freedom beyond my own home town. Like Paul, I must constantly respond to the Macedonian call for aid.

Great. We've had politics, now we're onto religion. We seem to be moving further away from wargaming than ever.

Traditionally, politics and religion were the two subjects that people were advised to avoid in public houses. The reason being that they are divisive and achieve nothing. You don't persuade people and change their opinions, you simply end up causing strife and argument. What a great advert for wargaming!

Bill: Here is my opinion on this link. This appears to be a partisan publication which does not promote objective, balanced content. The kind of content that might support a general historical discussion without a propaganda agenda. This affects its credibility. Same with the Guardian. Enjoy this kind of discussion somewhere else.

Doc, politics has been turned into culture and vice versa. Our stewardship of the nation has suffered. We can't even prioritize our own survival anymore. So yes this is important, but this is not the forum for these issues. This is a hobby forum, full of great things about miniatures and wargaming, rich in history and hopefully a place for fellowship. Let's not lose the plot here and be overrun by current partisan political agendas.

Like it or not, we have to resolve these issues (as a society) and especially how we are to understand and teach our shared memory, our history. Where better to debate the issues than a forum filled with people with a greater than average interest in, and maybe even knowledge of, our past?

Do YOU deny the relevance of religion in understanding, say, the Abolitionists, or the 1960s Civil Rights movement? McClay's article (nor his book LAND OF HOPE) does not insist on any particular interpretation of, e.g., the role of religion, but only maintains that there WAS one. What is wrong with reasonable people discussing that? You wouldn't be affronted at a debate on the role of, say, Adam Smithian capitalism in American history, though thta is very controversial. Nor the effect of Darwinian "survival of the fittest" ideology. Why is religion in some special hands-off category?

Does the word filibuster have a ring of truth ??

We don't have to resolve these issues here! You ask a great deal of a hobby forum where people love miniatures and wargaming – we collect minis and we play games!

We talk history related to those things. We wander sometimes, but its when the partisan agendas come out that I cringe more and more here. Surely there is another place for this.

Where better? Not the issue.

IF there are members who want to discuss these things, we will and should be able to. If I'm the only one, the thread will stagnate and die. People who come here to rant about how they don't want to be here will keep it going for a while, as I tend to respond to challenges, but if there is no substance there's no point.

Having a majority of the population belonging to the different Christian religions does not make the United States a Christian nation…

There are those right-wing religious fanatics that want the US to be a Christian nation, but it isn't happening-at least not any time soon…

Kevin, yes and no. A general Protestantism was dominant in the culture. Anything that Baptists and Methodists and Presbyterians and Episcopalians agreed on, which was quite a lot, was the cultural norm. That is less so now. I am a right wing Christian but am not aware of anyone who wants a theocracy nor less toleration and religious liberty than we have now. I think you are worried about s threat that does not exist.

Right wing 'Christians' support a right-wing ideology in this country that has amounted, along with white nationalists, of an ongoing native terrorist threat.

I'm reminded of a quote from the book Ivanhoe by Sir Walter Scott (and this is a paraphrase since I don't have the book to hand): "For every person who is not a Christian, there is a Christian who is not a Christian."

I didn't bring up the idea of a 'theocracy.' However, I believe that some right wing militia groups are now touting what the Taliban did in Afghanistan and that it might be a good idea if that was done in the US…

Cite specifics, if you can. I think that is monsters in your closet and under your bed.

So, in the partisan politics world, this would be the perfect time to unload a bunch of citations on the threat of domestic terrorism in the US a la Jan 6. There are serious recent warnings. Right here. Not the Taliban.

But my point is that this discussion is not really what people look for on this Board. And I don't agree that I should just go away and ignore it or that I am just here to complain about your thread.

This feels like a partisan campaign event, not just an off topic discussion on a hobby site. As I have said, when I go to the grocery store, I don't expect to stumble over auto parts to get to the food. And that's what this feels like for me.

Enough said, I will leave you to it.

I think that is monsters in your closet and under your bed.

January 6th and the statement by the Director of the FBI about the right wing domestic terrorist threat to the United States, and a good portion of that is right wing religious-based.

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."-James Madison.

Well, ladies and gentlemen, I was just released from the DH.
So I've been watching this thread for a few days, amused.
A few observations.
First, this thread is posted to the American Revolution Board. The American Revolution is mentioned once in the opening post, and once when someone asks if the OP does any actual gaming. The OP replies that he does.
So this will be the 68th post on this thread and the American Revolution has been mentioned 3 times. THREE TIMES!
I was slapped down by The Editor once a while back for having the nerve to take a proprietary interest in "MY" American Revolution board, even though it was my Poll Suggestion that got it rolling.
But THREE POSTS about the American Revolution in 68 on a thread in the AWI board… Am I allowed to say it depresses me?

Second. It seems to me that a few posters are breaking the "Shut Up" rule by getting angry with people who complain about topics that "have nothing to do with wargaming". Basically they are telling them to shut up if they don't like it.

Third. When this thread first showed up, I could have predicted exactly what would happen. I was correct 100%.

Fourth. Also when I started, I went to the link provided in the OP. It was bloated, frankly unreadable. I never bothered to read further than the third paragraph because the first three were so rambling and incoherent and never even touched on what the title was about. I applaud anyone who got past the third paragraph. Actually, I should not applaud masochism. That's just sick.

Allow me to make a fourth American Revolution plug on this thread.
I'm setting up a Yorktown game for … sometime soon I hope.
Rather than merely grab my "generic Hessian" figures, I'm actually painting 24 figures for the Anspach regiment and possibly another for both.
I got some Perry and Foundry 24-lb guns to go with my Hinchliffe one. The Perry gun gave me French artillerists! Yay!
I'm currently beheading a bag of Old Glory hunting shirt dudes and replacing the heads with Kings Mountain heads wearing LI cap.
Finally, I just got a package of Acheson Creations gun emplacements and a couple feet of gabions.

So, let's now return this thread to its usual gibberish.
We do need a separate Board for Political Drivel. The Ultramodern boards have been abused by political bs and so has the AWI and ACW boards.
We already have Utter Drivel. Why not Political Drivel?

John, I believe the Political Drivel page is actually called Blue Fez.

Damon.

By the way, I also think that it's rather arrogant to say that Black people cannot claim Douglass, Tubman and MLK as heroes. What kind of twisted logic and reasoning goes into a claim like that?

The kind that can be summed in in fourteen words.

What is actually quite depressing, actually, is that this thread has remained at the top of the forum list for- sheesh!- has it really only been four days?

Welcome back John. It's great to hear from you and your new posting is excellent.

And what, pray, is wrong with insisting that Douglass and Tubman and MLK are AMERICAN heroes? Unless the end in view is to keep us all divided.

Do you not WANT all American children to learn about the heroism of each of them? Was the ending of slavery, and of segregation, JUST a black concern? Just a black achievement? Not even close. African Americans can certainly claim them as heroes, but so can the rest of us.

You guys are bright enough to know what my point is. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Kevin, the Madison quote is fine, But doesn't that also mean we do not want ethnic hatred from other parts of the world to divide us here?

I don't care if African Americans want their own heroes, but they can't have Stephen Douglass or Harriet Tubman or MLK: they are AMERICAN heroes and belong to us all.

Was the ending of slavery, and of segregation, JUST a black concern? Just a black achievement? Not even close. African Americans can certainly claim them as heroes, but so can the rest of us.

For an academic, you certainly can turn on a dime. In the first example, it certainly looks you are specifically denying African Americans the right to claim them as heroes.
By the way, current style sheets require the capitalization of the "B" in "Black".
It is now incorrect to write "black". For my part, I capitalize "Irish" and "Polish" as ethnic groups, so I also capitalize "White". For some, that may be contentious, but I like to be consistent.

…it certainly looks you are specifically denying African Americans the right to claim them as heroes.

Right on the money. Well said.

They are American heroes, but everyone has the right to claim their own heroes.

And the ubiquitous reference to 'they' is somewhat offensive…and could be classed as 'racist'…and the comments by 'doc' are both divisive and somewhat ignorant.

I should have said blacks/Blacks/African-Americans cannot have them as exclusive to them. Though I think what I meant was clear enough and suspect you are deliberately misunderstanding.

Think what you like. Perhaps you should be careful what you say and how you say it.

It was very clear to me what you wrote and the meaning behind it. It is close concert with right-wing ideology. And that is just plain wrong.

Okay, Kevin, sorry, maybe you are NOT deliberately misunderstanding.

I think we've reached the point of futility here. Let's end this.

…sorry, maybe you are NOT deliberately misunderstanding.

Perhaps recalling the 8th Commandment would be helpful…

dailycatholic.org/cms41.htm

I'm very pleased to see that you can still fall back upon Christian values when the moment calls for it.

B

They are not merely Christian values. They are basic rules and standards that also evolved over time. 'Bearing false witness' has been against the law as well as social norms for quite some time.

I'm very pleased to see that you can still fall back upon Christian values when the moment calls for it.

Glad you are pleased, but the Ten Commandments were 'written' before the beginnings of Christianity (in point of fact way before Christianity) and are Jewish in origin.

"Glad you are pleased, but the Ten Commandments were 'written' before the beginnings of Christianity (in point of fact way before Christianity) and are Jewish in origin."

True enough, but a lot depends upon "when the kitten becomes a cat", as Lord Fisher of Kilverstone might well have put it. The Christian belief system after all spans both the Old and New Testaments, does it not?

BTW, are you implying that you would have a problem if the Ten Commandments solely derived from the New Testament? Just asking.

- – -

"… the United States is a secular country, with a secular government, …"

Are you sure about that? Did not one of those amendments added to the Constitution of the United States of America guarantee "Freedom of Worship" as a God-given natural right? Maybe you are referring to the concept of "Separation of Church and State"; but does not define the nation as a "secular state", only that the governance of the nation is not uniquely beholden to any specific religious credo.

- – -

"Having a majority of the population belonging to the different Christian religions does not make the United States a Christian nation…"

Speaking from a Constitutional viewpoint, no it does not. But from a statistical viewpoint, the point that the USA is a predominantly Christian nation may be legitimately argued.

- – -

"There are those right-wing religious fanatics that want the US to be a Christian nation, but it isn't happening-at least not any time soon…"

There are also fanatical movements among other religious (and atheistic) persuasions who pronounce a similar desire. Judging by the numbers of Christian churches being desecrated and burnt down across the country nowadays, it seems that those Christian religious fanatics you refer to don't seem to be doing a very good job of things. Speaking for myself, I haven't seen any mass marches of armed and robed Kleagles in downtown Greenville in quite a while. I think it's probably safe for you to relax your fears of any imminent seizure of the nation by Christian fanatics.

BTW, I had thought that the proper term for this year was "EXTREME far-right Christian fanatics"; I'm just passing that along for general reference; it's important to keep the terminology properly consistent.

B

The Venn diagram is complex, but there are certainly large overlaps.

LOL! Don't you know it's important to keep up with the latest major media themes. Otherwise you might confuse the plebs.

B

Perhaps this will help in understanding fundamentalism, radicalism, and ideology.

George Bush said this on Saturday at the memorial service for Flight 93 in Pennsylvania.

He linked the foreign terrorists to domestic terrorists, saying that they are 'children of the same foul spirit.'

And he is exactly right.

He linked the foreign terrorists to domestic terrorists, saying that they are 'children of the same foul spirit.'

And he is exactly right.

I am dealing with the trauma of agreeing with you.

It's easier to understand a foreigner wanting to attack one's country. Especially a country that has meddled in the affairs of far-away places as much as the USA has. It is inevitable that one has enemies from abroad. They're still enemies, but at least they have their reasons, which aren't too different from the motivations of enemies in war in any period of history: a clash of opposing goals and/or ideologies.

But to be a domestic terrorist – in a democracy, where peaceful change is an option – and one who is inspired by lunatic BS that one has invented onesself, or had served up to you by a malevolent foreign power who is banking on your gullibility and maliciousness…? No, that's a special kind of awful.

As for those people who've made themselves wealthy and powerful in the perpetual outrage business, magnifying and amplifying this lunacy, profiting from the destruction of the free society that enabled their success in the first place? I can only assume that they believe they've got a yacht parked somewhere that will whisk them away to safety when the excrement hits the ventilator.

The more complete quote from former President Bush is:

"There is little cultural overlap between violent extremists abroad and violent extremists at home. But in their disdain for pluralism, in their disregard for human life, in their determination to defile national symbols, they are children of the same foul spirit."

And to my mind, this goes for extremists of any ilk. Fanaticism and ideology, both political and religious, are the enemies of liberal democracies which has been demonstrated clearly in the 20th century and .

If the truth ever comes out about what has really been going on in this nation for the past 50-60 years (both politically and culturally), there will IMO be a lot of red faces and angry people.

B

If the truth ever comes out about what has really been going on in this nation for the past 50-60 years (both politically and culturally), there will IMO be a lot of red faces and angry people.

Luckily, however, you've been kept informed? Good to know that the truth is safe in your hands.

But seriously? There has never been more "red faces and angry people" in the US in my lifetime as there are now. And rather few of them got that way from "the truth." Indeed, the majority seem determined to get as much untruth as they possibly can, to keep feeding their anger like a junkie.

OK Bill, what was the issue with 'Gilda' – I know it should have been Gildas but why snip it?

Some people felt he was deliberately mocking your membername, which is against forum rules.

Hi Garth,
LOL. We all imagine that we are "well informed". You appear to think so. I don't believe we, down at the 'plebeian' level really are at all. I really do hope that my views of events are totally wrong, but am dreadfully afraid that it is not the case.

Time will ultimately tell. Cross your fingers and say a prayer for you family.

B