"Arc of Fire Rules?" Topic

While looking at Battleground WW2 again I inevitably came across its alleged successor, Arc of Fire. What can you tell me about these rules? How similar are they to Battleground WW2 in practice? I think I may have played them back in the day but I cannot remember anything about them. I've been able to get some of the basics from reading older posts, but can you fill in more details?

For example, there was a lot of chatter about spotting in the game… it seems some people were upset that spotting ranges were so long (particularly for vehicles) such as to make spotting effectively automatic. Others were upset with the idea that you would have to roll spotting every new turn (or possibly every card flip, i.e. twice per turn), and thus spotting was too inconsistent. I'm not sure what to make of these seemingly contradictory criticisms. Is spotting so variable as to stretch credibility, or so consistent that the question of concealment and properly acquiring a target vanishes from gameplay entirely?

Also, some said the vehicles rules were way too simple and unsatisfying, whether vehicles were too generic (i.e. organized into nondescript vehicle "categories" or classes) or that the damage rolls were rather bland and uninteresting. Others said that vehicle heavy games would drag considerably, which seems to imply that the vehicle rules were actually too complex! Which is it? And if the vehicle rules were so bland and boring, why were people playing vehicle-heavy scenarios in the first place?

And I read that the game cannot handle a company-sized scenario and can only manage a platoon per side, but I have also read that attackers need a 3:1 advantage and thus a company should attack a defending platoon. This is confusing, as the former claim would suggest the game would bog down and become unbearable with a company on one side. Also, what game mechanics are in place that would give the defender such an edge that the attacker would need a 3:1 advantage to even stand a chance?

Finally, some said the game was quite crunchy with lots of optional rules and "chrome", while others complained about the gameplay was too abstracted, whether for the individual soldier's actions, matters of psychology or for armoured vehicles or weaponry. One commenter said the game was "abstracted in all the wrong places," but he did not elaborate further.

I'm also trying to get a sense of how much table space would be required for this game. Could you give me an idea of some of the common ranges? How far can you shoot with an SMG, rifle or HMG? How far can you spot an infantryman, whether in the open, in cover, moving or firing? How far can a grenade or rifle-grenade fly, and what is the minimum range of a 50mm light mortar or the shortest range band of a light anti-tank gun?

What other things can you tell me about Arc of Fire?

link
Answers some of your questions.

Have you searched for other reviews?

Yes, but unfortunately many seem to talk about the game in only general ways, without getting down into the math of it. I'd love to see a more detailed, mechanistic discussion of the game as I live in a country where shipping would cost more than the rules themselves and there is apparently no electronic or PDF purchase option that I can see.

I've read that review, for example, and the author says things like:

Combat is resolved with a to-hit number and modifiers. Combat results are Morale check, Wound, and Kill.

But it is not clear what that means… is the to hit number based in the attacker's skill? Or perhaps the defender's skill, like Flames of War? Or is there a big combat matrix like BGWW2's spotting table? How likely is an average soldier to hit an enemy in light cover at effective range? And how are "combat results" determined? Is there a wound and armour roll, like Warhammer 40k? An opposed die roll? Do I look up some tables? Is all small arms fire equally lethal?

All reviews like that tell me is that the game has some way of determining casualties. How bloody it is, or how casualties are determined in the first place, is left obscure at best. And that's just one example… one wonders about tanks taking damage, melee, artillery, minefields, air support, difficult terrain penalties to movement and so on.

It's been quite a few years since our group has played it and I think I still have the rules around somewhere. I thought they were really, really good, but the group likes to play with a lot of figures and the games were getting fairly long as the system is pretty tactical. First off, it's not Flames of War or WH40K. There are charts for two different scales; one where an M-16 can go out to 300 inches and one where it's about half to a third of that, which lets you select the level you want to play at.

If I recall, you can either play where when a figure is hit, that's it or there is a system for wounds, which will slow the game down. Firing is fairly simple; pick a target, go through a list of modifiers, then determine if there was a hit. The anti-armor system works well and as I stated above, it's a pretty good system that would have been right at home in the 70s and the 80s.

300 inches! That's 25 feet! So basically everything is always within effective small arms range on a 5 foot by 3 foot table?

How do you determine which soldier is hit? Is the hit from a rifle the same as the hit from a pistol? How do you figure out how badly the target is wounded? Another roll with modifiers?

I found the comment about Arc of Fire being "right at home in the 70s and the 80s" to be odd… how is AoF different from more modern rules systems?

Again, I haven't played in quite some time and since I'm at work I don't have access to the rules. The comment about the 70s and 80s is that complexity was sort of a given in those days where most rules/games today are heavily streamlined, such as Flames of War.

Yes, the ranges are long, but the firing system isn't that detailed as you're using probably a platoon or more on the tabletop, so you don't want to take all night with just one firing phase! There is a separate table for determining wounds. My view is that if you play a large scenario, i.e., 4 or 5 vehicles with 40-50 infantry per side you shouldn't use the individual wound system as it takes too long and there's too many markers on the board.

If you really, really, really want to get into tactical level firefights with a ton of detail, then try Phoenix Command. Each turn is something like 3 seconds and they have data for every weapon since the dawn of time. Pretty realistic, but not much fun to play.

I have it buried in a box but what I remember is that it produced great games. I played it with kids as young as seven and they enjoyed it.

Also, link

Great spotting rules

Arc of Fire is a great skirmish set of rules for WW2. It can be said to be Battleground Light in so far as it is D10 based and simplifying many of the procedures and charts. Back in the day our gaming group used it exclusively and it gave a fast game (provided you didn't overload the board with figures and tanks) that was fun to play.
Anyways, having the rules and charts next to me now as I type this, I can give you some details.
The card draw system randomizes just which squad or tank platoon may be next to activate, so players don't have full control over their units. There are 2 sets of movement and firing charts with one set labeled as Large Scale. There are 6 range bands with each being double the one before it. Regular starts at 5 inches and Large at 10 inches. Weapons are range limited so only Hmg and guns go out to that 6th band. We used the regular charts and played on 5x6 table. Like Battleground the further out you shot the harder it was to hit. Weapons roll a number of dice (usually 1 but 20mm autocannon rolls 3, FT 5, Smg 3, autorifle 2.) Basically there are 5 modifiers for both infantry and armor so it's a quick procedure to determine a hit. Example: regular chart: Rifle firing at infantry in woods range 20 inches would be Row 7 on soft target weapons effect table using 1 d10 per rifle in squad firing, modifiers are cover -1, and say target is in defensive mode -1. The modified die roll would be: 1-6 miss, 7 morale check, 8 morale-1 check, 9 wound, 10+ KIA. Hits are distributed randomly to the targeted squad. There is an optional Wound/Kill table which is useful if doing a campaign with your squad but it does slow things down a bit with a die roll per hit to determine hit location and effect. Mk IV H firing at a Sherman face on range 40 inches. 1d10 on Row 3 of hard target weapons effect table. Modifiers to die roll: Sherman armor -2, other modifiers would be: if firer passed a stop/fire roll, is in confused mode, is buttoned up, movement of target. Results are from neutralized (no movement or firing til morale is passed), neutralized with possible critical, immobilized to destroyed. The morale charts are for both the individual/vehicle and for the entire units. They are based on unit grade, and a die roll with some modifiers determines if they remain in the battle and in what condition. Spotting depends upon the unit status (there are 3, Advance mode, Defense mode, and Confused mode) each with its pluses and minuses and is cross referenced with what you are trying to spot. Result is max range of spotting attempt which can be modified by having binocs. Movement is a straight forward number of inches dependant on condition: normal, on road, in rough going, or encountering a hard obstacle.
The rules cover artillery, weather, airborne, engineers, etc. There's even a random events chart with 100 fun things that can occur (rabid dog attacks a squad member, rancid food affects a squad's morale).
I hope this answers your questions. The publisher never did go to a PDF. They seem to have changed their focus to their Check Your 6 game. I see that On Military Matters still carries the rules.

That's terrific, thanks Buckeye. It seems that small arms fire is not super deadly and morale effects are more common than kills, which I appreciate. The hit chart does indeed sound similar to the BGWW2 spotting table, which is interesting. Am I correct in assuming a "critical" result on a tank might do things like damage a weapon or jam the turret? It's too bad the rules don't have randomized movement as I quite enjoy that in the Lardies rulesets, but I guess the fixed movement rates speeds up play a little. Are there hail mary chances for smaller guns to penetrate heavier armours? I was surprised to see that in Nuts! (from THW) a 5cm PAK cannot harm a T-34/76, whereas in Battleground WW2 even the lowly 37mm PAK has a chance to do that. Is a tank like the T-34/76 for example invulnerable against a certain caliber of light anti-tank gun?

Did you like playing Battleground? Compare its firing ranges and spotting to some of the details I list below. AoF is less detailed but if you want a game that can handle a meeting engagement with 3 squads, Coy cmd, and a platoon of vehicles per side with maybe some indirect fire arty and plays in 2-3 hours it may fit your criteria. Of course having players that know the rules and are ready when the card for their unit comes up goes a long way toward a fast game, but tripling the number of squads/AFVs is gonna bog down any skirmish game. Some of your other questions answered as follows: Regular scale chart Ranges Smg 10 inches (but only hits on a 10+ at that range, rifle to 40 inches, Hmg 160 but 9+ at that range, effective range is probably 10-40, rifle grenade 20 inches, regular grenade 2 inches. Spotting infantry in open depends upon mode of spotter and target. Inf in defense mode in the open can be spotted by infantry in defense/advance mode to 20 inches. But if they fired on their last card, it is doubled. But if the infantry in the open are in advanced or confused mode they are spotted at 40 inches and double that if they fired. If the spotter is in confused mode it is half these stated ranges. An enclosed vehicle in advance mode spots infantry in the open in defense mode at 10 inches to its front and 5 inches to the side/rear. Hope this info helps you.

AFV criticals include main gun destroyed and turret jam, radio out, fire, ˝ speed and neutralized.
Ok, a Pz3e 37mm vs a T34/76 in the open at ranges up to 20 inches rolls on 5 row. So needs a 5 or more to affect the T34 (as an aside, the minimum die roll needed with modifiers is also the row number so easy to remember what number or higher you want). T34 has front armor mod of -2, T34 moved more than 8 inches: -2, assume firer passed its stop/fire roll and changes from advance mode to defense mode. Firer's best results would be 10 a neutralized or a 9 neutralized critical. Now if the T34 moved less than 8 inches there would be -3 total mods so now immobilized is possible. For the most part even a ATR could affect a T34 under the right circumstances. Usually a neutralized at best. But that means the T34 can't move or fire until it rallies on its card leaving its crew open to close assault or if the firer has another card left, it moves for that flank and hopes its card comes up first next turn.

That's supremely helpful, thanks again Bob. Some reactions to this:

1) I am a little disappointed that AoF likely won't handle "company" and "company plus" well… I think it is inevitably that I will want my skirmish games to handle some larger scenarios, perhaps the finale to a short campaign or the like. I know there are tons of company-scale rules out there (I am an unabashed fan of IABSM 2nd Edition and fully plan to be buried with my copy of those rules). That said, company rules are necessarily abstract in comparison to 1:1 skirmish games like AoF… I'd love to have both the big battle raging in the background while an individual soldier does something heroic at a pivotal moment. I want to have my cake and eat it too.

That said, I will pick up AoF and give it a try with larger games, just to see how badly it bogs down… if it is sufferable, I may just use it mainly for "platoon plus" and do the "company plus" on special occasions.

2)Those weapon ranges sound like they are doable for my table… ideal would be a 6'x4' table or larger, as I like rules where you can still maneuver a litlte outside of small arms fire distance. It's good to know that it can fit on my table fairly well, though. The spotting ranged (assuming they are half those quoted for targets in concealment) also look like they would work fairly well. I am guessing that if infantry on the defense (in the open) could be spotted 20" away (automatically?), then in cover they would only be spotted at 10". If that is indeed the case, then it sounds like a successful TAC roll would allow the spotter to see the concealed defensive infantry at 20", is that right? Those numbers seem reasonable to me.

I may actually convert all the inches to centimeters and simply measure with a metric ruler and see how that goes. 40cm range with a rifle (about 16") would give lots of maneuvering room.

3) It is strange that movement makes so much of a difference in harming a tank… I am used to games with separate attack and damage rolls, where you can distinguish between difficulty hitting the target (which relies on skill and concealment) and the likelihood of armour penetration (which relies on range and armour thickness). The odd thing about the rules you describe is that an armoured car moving more than 8" would have the same defensive ability as a T-34 that is stationary… -2. The other weird thing is that it sounds like the attack roll is the damage roll and the damage is scaled so that penalties incrementally remove certain damage results from the range of possible effects. For example, you mentioned that a T-34 could only be immobilized by a 37mm if it weren't moving. Immobilization generally means a track hit, but then why should the track only be susceptible to damage when the vehicle is moving?

The only answer I suppose is that it is an abstraction to make the rules run more quickly. I'll give it a shot and see if I can ignore the oddities. The benefit of the BGWW2 tank system is that it uses a d20, so even very small possibilities can be modeled. The opposite of that is a game like Nuts!, which uses a D6 that cannot model things with great granularity (which gives strange results, like the 5cm PAK never being able to penetrate a T-34, even though that weapon ought to be pretty effective against this tank, at least at the ranges represented by the game).

I will say that while I am surprised an immobilized option is one of the hardest to achieve damage results, I do appreciate that critical hits are one of the easier results. This means tanks do not have to be destroyed outright to disable them… a hit on the turret ring or the vehicle's main gun will render them combat-ineffective. If I end up house-ruling it, I may include a "track hit" option as one of the possible critical hit results. That would be like the "immobilized" result but could perhaps be repairable with a TAC roll.

Personally I like AoF, and we still play it. We admittedly do play with several House Rules. We used to play with 15s, now most of the time 20s, so we use the smaller scale charts.

Any card-driven game is going to slow down as the number of cards in the deck increase, that's just the nature of the beast. There are things you can do, like having multiple units activate on the same card, though this does affect other mechanics such as holding a card and opportunity fire.

The spotting is fairly simplified, and it's true that a vehicle that moves (or is just in Advance or Confused mode) or fires is almost certainly going to be easily seen, but that is usually is not a problem, and doesn't seem unrealistic to me given the short ranges in a skirmish game.

The firing mechanics are fairly simple. This is definitely IMO a good thing. For small arms, by knowing the range brackets are 5"-10"-20"-40", the hit number for rifles are 5-6-7-8 and for LMGs are 4-5-6-7, and that cover is -1 and dense cover is -2, you have the information to resolve 80-90% of small arms fire without having to look at the QRS. I've been told its intimidating the speed at which I can resolve small arms fire…

The mechanics for vehicle fire are very similar, which again IMO is a good thing. However, if you're one of those who relishes more the BGWWII system where you end up making at least 4 rolls (to hit, location, penetration, damage effect) to determine the shot hit the 3rd bolt from the left on the upper glacis, then you probably will feel unfulfilled.

We will be running a scenario based on the movie "The Beast" imdb.com/title/tt0094716 at Hurricon end of September link using Arc of Fire.

A M your assumptions on spotting are correct.
There is no reason you could not use centimeters in lieu of inches. The Publishers encourage house rules in the Designer Notes pages
Yes tank fire is somewhat abstracted combining the To Hit and Effects in one roll. As Codiver said, simplifies things to keep the game from bogging down.

We also had a player like him that first saw how the numbers and ranges worked and was able to quickly figure the DR effect without looking at the QRS. I did go so far as to generate a more refined armor rating for all vehicle variants of all nations that we used.

Marc….looking forward to seeing the Beast AAR posted afterwards. I am sure it will be a blast to play. Rooting for the Russkies not to break..

If you do pick up the rules note some corrections in the downloads section of link

Hi all, thanks again for the help. The rulebook arrived and I am starting to dig into it. I ran a quick test game using a squad on each side and noticed something odd… the attacking squad was crossing a broad field to get closer to the defending squad. The defender put fire on the advancing squad and after a turn or two, the advancing squad had about half of its number still advancing towards a fence while the other half was rubber-banding back to the forest the squad initially emerged from due to failed morale. This dynamic, with part of the squad moving towards the enemy and part of the squad filtering back towards cover was kind of strange—I think I expected the squad to just get pinned in the field, but there seemed to be no rule for that. At the very least, I would have expected the squad to largely stay together (whether that meant continuing to advance or all falling back together). Am I doing something wrong?

Also, how do you simulate a tank going into a "creep and hunt" type of mode? Would that be just represented by advancing a bit and then switching to defense mode?

Here's an example for you. The squad is the unit and each man is an element. Page 8 has the sequence of play.
One 10 man squad of good 5+ morale (and not very bright troops) in advance mode attacking across an open field toward an enemy 10 man average squad 6+ morale behind a hedgerow in defense mode. There are 4 cards in the draw deck, 2 for each squad. Good morale squad card 1 comes up first. They advance their full movement towards the enemy. Card 2 is the average squad that fires (poorly) and manages 2 morale checks which are randomly assigned to troopers (pg 16) and MCs are failed. Card 3 is the Good squad and the 2 broken troops run back towards their start point (pg. 21 Broken Soldiers) while the other 8 (Sgt and 7 troopers) advance towards the enemy but the movement amount is not enough to reach the hedgerow and they stop short in the open field. Card 4 the average squad fires wildly at the advancing enemy. (Had they fired at the broken elements they would incur a -1drm). The result is 3 broken troops (but not the sgt) and 2 fail their 5+ morale check but one passes. So at the end of this phase Good morale squad has 4 broken and 6 good order elements.
Next is the Rally phase where you attempt to rally broken elements on the Mode and Morale Charts –Individual and Vehicle Morale. 2 broken troops within 6 inches of the leader can use the leader's morale if it was better than theirs, but since it's the same they need a 5+ to rally. Say they both do. The other 2 running back fail their rally attempt. Average squad has no broken elements so skips this phase.
Next is the Unit Morale phase. On the Unit Morale Chart you perform a check on the Good squad as it had elements break, even if they all had rallied in the Rally phase. Using the 5+ line, to your die roll add the modifier -2 (20-40% of the squad elements are currently broken). Die roll 4 minus 2 is Confused. The good squad immediately changes mode to confused. Had they rolled a 1, the result would be -1 and the squad would be disrupted…note the key under the chart on how the disrupted result would affect the whole squad.
The unit morale is based on the total casualties/currently broken at the point in time it is taken and not just that turn. So cumulative casualties affect whether a unit continues in action or runs away based on its Unit Morale and that modified die roll. So players do not control fully how their units perform. Some may bravely condinue even tho elements are scattered to some extent and others may just give up.
There are no pinned or suppressed results per say in the rules. Confused mode is defined as a lack of coordination between the elements of a unit and incurs a negative firing and close assault drm. The unit is less effective. Lack of pin/suppresssed is a bit different than some other rules but they work well due to the morale aspect.
Not sure by what you mean by creep and hunt. A tank already in an ambush (over watch) position & in defense mode could declare opportunity fire at an enemy moving in its LOS provided it still has at least 1 unit card left in the draw deck (Pg.17 Opportunity Fire). Otherwise 1 card to move into ambush position, next card to change mode to defense and on the following turn it is ready to OpFire.
Hope this helps you.

We just played Arc of Fire for a Vietnam scenario, fighting in Hue. We made each command a squad, with each squad divided into fire teams, and a fire team was the unit. So units were pretty small and brittle.

I really liked these rules. I thought they were relatively easy to play. We didn't have a lot of armor or vehicles to manage, so we didn't have to deal with a lot of penetration, but we did do some direct fire against buildings which complicated things a bit.

The basics, move, fire, casualties and morale were pretty easy to run. We ran Hue at a convention and everybody pretty much got the hang of it after a turn or two. I like 'em.

Good rule set. This is likely too late for you to read but my 2 cents. There is no suppression nor pins but the combined hit/casualty table uses the morale checks to do the same thing but on an individual basis.
The artillery rules are the most accurate I have found of any rule set including my own (until updated version came out).
I have a completely updated WWI, WWII, and Modern vehicle stat chart. You can find me on the TRACTICS facebook page.
I use 28mm and the Large Scale which is 1"=5m ground scale vs. the regular scale which is 1"=10 m. Be sure to use a lot of terrain.

A post about a couple of items in the latest part of the discussion…

First, if your advancing squad/unit has a couple of guys that fail morale, and head back to their starting position, you could always elect to move your squad back with them so as to have your squad leader available to rally them. That's your decision as the squad leader. However, your platoon leader probably wouldn't be very happy about that – which would be most interesting in a multiplayer game if it's actually another person. Also WRT morale, I think the fact that broken troops get an extra -1 modifier to be hit is brilliant.

Second, we wholeheartedly agree with Frank Chadwick's comments in the designer's notes of Command Decision (1st version anyway) that movement is good. Accordingly we have several house rules WRT movement. One of our house rules for movement is a Running (or Galloping in the case of cavalry) rule that allows for faster movement. Another involves "Marching Fire" which allows troops with some weapons to both move and fire (at reduced ROF and a -1 to hit and can't be running) in the same action. Finally, we allow a "sneak" move that allows elements of a unit in Defense Mode to make a small 1" move/adjustment, without having to have the entire unit switch to Advance Mode, then switch back to Defense Mode. This is most often used with infantry, but we do allow Small Gun Teams to pivot and an AFV could use it for example to move from turret down to hull down.

A bit off-topic but aegisc47's reference to Phoenix Command made me laugh.

I had the rules and all the supplements when I was younger. I loved reading them and working out various shots. Then we tried to play…..

Took a simple scenario where a police SWAT teams was called to a bank robbery. After four hours of play about 18 seconds of game time had elapsed! Some of my SWAT officers had moved from behind one to car to another and about three had been shot in the head.

Super detailed rules for hitting and damage but everyone was a super-sniper and no rules for fog of war, etc. Get off one shot and three seconds later you can take your next shot at a brand new target that just moved into the area.

As it says in the Northern Pikes' song – "She ain't pretty she just looks that way".

Shawn