John the OFM | 30 Aug 2021 10:06 a.m. PST |
Just to keep those current finger pointing threads separate from "real" military topics. It would make it easier to turn off the current "Let's blame the mess in Afghanistan on…..!" threads. |
John the OFM | 30 Aug 2021 10:08 a.m. PST |
"STB" is shorthand for "Should there be…", because my title was too long. |
robert piepenbrink | 30 Aug 2021 10:21 a.m. PST |
Yes, please! Ideally with a mechanism to prevent cross-posting to actual miniatures boards. Actually, I'd also like a "Historical Military Politics" board for everyone who wants to relitigate wars and revolutions instead of working out how to fight the resulting battles on a tabletop. |
Tortorella | 30 Aug 2021 10:37 a.m. PST |
Yes!! This would be great! Would help the ACW and AWI boards as well stay focused on the hobby side. Blame culture is a fact of life now. I would be happy with a clearly identified board with its own guidelines for those kinds of discussions. Then I can enter willingly, or not, and know what to expect, and those who want to do this have a home for it. |
John the OFM | 30 Aug 2021 11:17 a.m. PST |
I wasn't even thinking of the AWI or ACW boards. However, it does seem like the life has been sucked out of the AWI board with huge irrelevant threads. |
StoneMtnMinis | 30 Aug 2021 11:23 a.m. PST |
NO! War IS politics on a personal level. It has been that way since recorded history. If your feelings get hurt don't read the thread John. |
Thresher01 | 30 Aug 2021 11:40 a.m. PST |
SMM for the win! I agree, NO. |
Tortorella | 30 Aug 2021 2:11 p.m. PST |
Hurt feelings? Yeah right, I'm all broke up over this. I have been changing my opinion after reading some of these posts lately. I wish war was that simple. Politics is a relative of war. No real bullets, much safer. But for TMP, I don't want it to be about pushing domestic political agendas. or looking like the news feed from a partisan media outlet. It's great to be a conservative, a supporter of the former guy, whatever. Enjoy. Take it to a Military Politics board is all we are asking. If someone doesn't want me to object, then don't write some of this stuff like its a campaign attack ad and put it on various boards that I think most of us rationally expect to be focused on the hobby. |
USAFpilot | 30 Aug 2021 2:41 p.m. PST |
I can certainly understand how some people are having a hard time processing the recent news that democracy lost and jihad won. Our allies realize this and no longer trust us. Sometimes the truth is painful. |
robert piepenbrink | 30 Aug 2021 3:01 p.m. PST |
Yes, SMM. War is fought for political reasons. But we're not refighting wars: we're refighting battles. Those 10 clandestine Interwar German tanks are a legitimate TMP issue. The proper boundary of Upper Silesia is not. Rehash political victories and defeats to your heart's content. But please do it to one side and let us go on with painting and pushing lead. |
shadoe01 | 30 Aug 2021 3:24 p.m. PST |
But we're not refighting wars: we're refighting battles. Those 10 clandestine Interwar German tanks are a legitimate TMP issue. The proper boundary of Upper Silesia is not. Maybe true for some of us, but some do fight battles within a theatre or war 'campaign'. What's the 'proper boundary of Upper Silesia' may not be relevant but that it's a war aim / campaign objective would be. |
shadoe01 | 30 Aug 2021 4:26 p.m. PST |
Seems to be a cyclical topic… TMP link TMP link TMP link TMP link TMP link TMP link TMP link TMP link TMP link TMP link TMP link …and that was just a quick (two minute) search and paste links effort. Humourous in a perverse sort of way. Actually I find the political discussion on the Napoleonic board waaaay more irritating. I will not click on a 'Napoleon/Wellington/Blucher is the best/worst' topic. Lots of discussion there which is political – it's just antiquated politics. Unfortunately the usual culprits often have something interesting to say. So it's up to me to winnow the wheat from the chaff I guess. |
robert piepenbrink | 30 Aug 2021 4:28 p.m. PST |
You know, if I thought any of the usual political combatants carried on their battles on TMP because they were actually related to miniatures or miniature warfare, I'd have some sympathy. They'd still be wrong, of course, but I'd be somewhat sympathetic. But when I come here and find the same arguments I find on RealClearPolitics--sometimes even links to the same articles--I know it's because the combatants can't think of anything else but politics for as much as half an hour a day. Start a blog or a syndicated column guys. Run for office. But leave a little space in the world for those of us with non-political interests. |
Chimpy | 30 Aug 2021 4:52 p.m. PST |
Well I turned off all of the Ultra Modern Boards so that they don't appear on my homepage as well as anything else that doesn't interest me. But I'm stuck with any politics that may sneak into the Modern Boards because I've got figures and game in that era. I don't need people trying to re-educate me with their own opinions. And the title of the thread is no clue as to what opinions may surface. |
Tortorella | 30 Aug 2021 5:12 p.m. PST |
Shadoe01 Amazing! And still no board after all these years. And I think we might say that not much has changed. So we will try again. USAF – you are right, it is hard. But the truth is that our allies need and trust us as much as ever. We are the most powerful military force in human history and our umbrella keeps the lid on a lot of threats. UK, Aus, France, Ger, Canada, many more. These guys all trust – period. That's the reality. They know this was a mess, and they may be critical. But they all sleep better at night because of us. |
Tortorella | 30 Aug 2021 5:23 p.m. PST |
Chimpy – thats the whole point of trying to make a clear cut place for the political folks. Hopefully this becomes a poll. |
Blasted Brains | 30 Aug 2021 5:58 p.m. PST |
YES! Is this "The Meandering Page", "The My-way-or-the-highway Page", or "The MINIATURES Page"? If it isn't the latter, I can certainly find other places to discuss miniatures. The more time I'm off the computer, the more time I have to paint! |
arealdeadone | 30 Aug 2021 6:07 p.m. PST |
I say no. We already have Ultramodern Gaming (2012-present) and Ultramodern Warfare (2012-present). Not many people post in Ultramodern Warfare, especially about war. You had a whole conventional war in Nagorno Karaabakh and I was the only one to post anything about it. The only posts that generate any interest are the ones with a political bent. So leave the forums as they are. |
Martin Rapier | 31 Aug 2021 1:07 a.m. PST |
I thought the whole point of the Ultramodern boards was so that people could bang on about politics while the rest of us could turn them off and ignore them. Might as well go the whole hog and reooen the old Current Affairs board. Oh what fun that used to be. |
Extrabio1947 | 31 Aug 2021 4:49 a.m. PST |
I just stifle/ignore those OP's who routinely and disingenuously create threads with overt political content, so those threads don't appear on my Message Boards. I also stifle/ignore posters who spend a inordinate amount of time in The Dawghouse for political rants. So I won't see these threads/posters regardless of whether or not a new board is created. I just want to read about the hobby, not politics. |
deephorse | 31 Aug 2021 9:43 a.m. PST |
But the truth is that our allies need and trust us as much as ever. Need, yes. Trust, not as much as we used to do. We are the most powerful military force in human history and our umbrella keeps the lid on a lot of threats. UK, Aus, France, Ger, Canada, many more. These guys all trust – period. You should look at what is being said in the EU a bit closer before being so sure that they trust the US – period. |
Tortorella | 31 Aug 2021 9:56 a.m. PST |
Good points, and I am wrong to imply they trust us on everything. I was thinking of the nuclear and conventional umbrella. When the chips are down … And this should be on a different thread, sorry. |
miniMo | 31 Aug 2021 9:01 p.m. PST |
It quite appears that the Ultra-Modern boards are a mere continuation of the Blue Fez by other means. Bill appears to like it that way. I've turned them off now as they are quite unlikely to generate much, if any, actual gaming related content. There are still the thinly veiled political polls alas. |
Tortorella | 01 Sep 2021 5:51 p.m. PST |
The problem has come when the posts get partisan and strident. There is a tradition here of vehement debate, but in light of today's hyper partisan culture, it can suck the fun out things. This has crept into some other boards as well sometimes. If you play ultra moderns, you may or may not end up in a blame fest using the latest partisan buzzwords. Bill seems okay with this and the threads have drawn heated attention and lots of activity. I am guessing no new board seems a likely outcome? So you just have to block it all out. I know how easy it is to bite on this stuff and dive in, I have been learning a lot lately. I hope to stay away as best I can. |
Legion 4 | 02 Sep 2021 3:49 p.m. PST |
It quite appears that the Ultra-Modern boards are a mere continuation of the Blue Fez by other means. I think with all that is going on with A'stan, etc., we see almost in real time. Bill maybe a little more easy going on this. I mean we are living and seeing a major world changing historical event(s) right before our eyes. And it certainly effects the USA directly … Plus many others … GEN Petraeus said this is our "Dunkirk" … I believe he is correct … |
Tortorella | 02 Sep 2021 6:28 p.m. PST |
You had some good posts Legion, made common sense and I respect your views. But I generally felt a strong feeling of hyping up the outrage, name-calling and heavy duty partisan blaming. Dunkirk was not the same, I think. The Allies suffered huge casualties, killed, wounded, captured. They were fighting a major battle in a conventional (not irregular, civil, guerilla), all-out, declared war against a huge, clearly identified military power. No way this equates to Afghanistan for me. The "miracle" of Dunkirk became a rallying cry to win the war. It does make me wonder about the political aspirations of the General, though. We disagree on this one. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 02 Sep 2021 8:25 p.m. PST |
Just to keep those current finger pointing threads separate from "real" military topics. So I'm trying to understand how this would work. A discussion would start on the Ultramodern Warfare board, and then our staff would have to watch it and decide if it becomes 'political', and then move it to the Ultramodern Politics board if it does? It would make it easier to turn off the current "Let's blame the mess in Afghanistan on…..!" threads. Finger-pointing at non-politicians is not politics, is it? Criticizing General Milley is not political, people on both sides are doing that. Finger-pointing beyond the '10 year rule' is not against forum rules, so would that have to go to the Ultramodern Politics quarantine board? |
Tango01 | 02 Sep 2021 8:49 p.m. PST |
Bah! … in a couple of weeks another issue will replace this one and some people will complain again … Armand
|
Heedless Horseman | 02 Sep 2021 10:28 p.m. PST |
Hmm. no. I am not a paying member…but interested in what others think… 'Some' may have more 'savvy' than 'News Media'! |
Tortorella | 03 Sep 2021 10:41 a.m. PST |
Bill: if you give the more strident partisan politicos a home, I think they will want to go there to connect with the like-minded. They can all be happy and there will be less of this activity on the boards where gamers go for more hobby related talk. The 10 year rule seems fine to me. Generals like Milley and Petraeus have a lot of political baggage. They would be fine on the politico board, where the comments about the commander in chief should also be. I believe someone referred recently to the Biden admin as "murderous" in one of the threads. That kind of thing. We have seen a lot of culture war threads also. Some of it is a pretty long stretch to miniatures and gaming. There are grey areas. There is no perfect solution, but we as a society are so hyper-partisan in general that partial relief is a blessing. I don't think it would involve more monitoring than it does now. But I am no expert. This is a discussion and the decision is in your hands. I will abide. |
Legion 4 | 03 Sep 2021 1:58 p.m. PST |
You had some good posts Legion, made common sense and I respect your views. Thank you … you may be one of the few ! 😎 We disagree on this one. Understand,… no problem … but I will still go with GEN Petraeus ! 😎 He and McChrystal were recently two of our best Gens., IMO … |
miniMo | 04 Sep 2021 2:40 p.m. PST |
Finger pointing at political appointees doing political jobs is indeed political. Doesn't matter how many sides are engaged in the finger-pointing. Not discussing elected politicians only is a very limited view of political discussions and a definition that serves very well for encouraging a lot of political discussions. |
Legion 4 | 04 Sep 2021 4:24 p.m. PST |
Hard not to mention some of those things that some/most would say is political. As I said before … we are living during major changes in the world. Some things will probably never be the same … |
Tortorella | 04 Sep 2021 8:17 p.m. PST |
There is a difference between mentioning things in that kind of context, Legion, and some people pushing a partisan agenda. Blamer culture gets us nowhere unless it's an objective discussion, and for now that ship may have sailed in America, especially in the partisan media. |
Heedless Horseman | 04 Sep 2021 11:08 p.m. PST |
Just saying… there is already an Ultra Modern Gaming board for modelling /gaming. I just click on this one as it had 'wider' issues of possible interest… and I haven't gamed / modelled 'Modern' for many years. Yes, controversial views… I have my own! BUT, I did find out something that I did not know in an 'argument'…can serve a useful / beneficial purpose. |
Tortorella | 05 Sep 2021 12:17 p.m. PST |
After all the Afghanistan stuff, I wondered if someone made the DH, and found John the OFM there today. This led me to the Science Board where a strident Covid encounter was going on. Although I am a recent member I have followed TMP for many years and I never realized there something called TMP PLus, which has all kinds of boards about many topics unrelated to the hobby. But the Rant Board does not allow politics. Horseman, I think you are right, the Ultra Modern is the place for ultra modern partisan fellowship, but this still does not address partisan confrontations on the ACW or AWI boards. |
Legion 4 | 05 Sep 2021 12:56 p.m. PST |
There is a difference between mentioning things in that kind of context, Legion, and some people pushing a partisan agenda. That is a reasonable conclusion. I try to not get too "political" as I don't want to go back to the DH … again … that ship may have sailed in America, especially in the partisan media. That IMO is irrefutable… |
shadoe01 | 05 Sep 2021 2:07 p.m. PST |
Regretfully, partisanship is permeating nearly all current discourse. How long before we need to have an ancients politics board? LoL |
Legion 4 | 05 Sep 2021 5:33 p.m. PST |
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Tortorella | 05 Sep 2021 6:15 p.m. PST |
I think Plato was a Republican. Aristotle will not be happy, this is how it begins. |