Nashville | 24 Aug 2021 6:48 p.m. PST |
When turning a ship -- do you leave the bow as is and turn the stern so many degrees? Or leave stern and move the bow.. or measure from center of ship.. Talking model ships of several inches or more.. And limit number of turn per game turn. |
David Manley | 24 Aug 2021 7:25 p.m. PST |
I tend to turn around the centre of the model, or a convenient spot, e.g. mainmast, bridge etc.As long as you are consistent it generally doesn't matter |
Yellow Admiral | 24 Aug 2021 9:42 p.m. PST |
Same as David Manley, unless specified otherwise by the rules. |
etotheipi | 25 Aug 2021 5:23 a.m. PST |
None of the above. Calclate advance, transfer, pitch, yaw, roll, and crab, then put the ship where it belongs. |
ColCampbell | 25 Aug 2021 6:14 a.m. PST |
Some rules use pivot from the bow (such as "Wooden Ships and Iron Men") while others use turning circles. Personally I prefer pivoting from the bow since that seems to be the best way to handle how the stern of the ship actually swings out during a turn. Jim |
jdpintex | 25 Aug 2021 6:29 a.m. PST |
I prefer turning circles, but I use a center point (mainmast, funnel, etc) as the measuring point. If using hex mats, then pivot on the bow. |
John the OFM | 25 Aug 2021 9:10 a.m. PST |
Where did "real" ships pivot from? |
miniMo | 25 Aug 2021 9:25 a.m. PST |
I only play one naval game and follow the rules of Man O'War: pivot with the stern in place and swing the bow any amount up until it touches the side of the template. |
Inch High Guy | 25 Aug 2021 9:41 a.m. PST |
John – real ships pivot around a point roughly 1/3 of the way back from the bow, but there are many exceptions. Advance and transfer are approximately five times the length of the ship but are affected by rudder angle, speed, displacement, and even depth of the water. These things are problematic to calculate with any accuracy and so are measured on an instrumented test range during sea trials at various speeds and rudder angles. |
etotheipi | 25 Aug 2021 10:48 a.m. PST |
Inch High Guy is talking about the pivot point for most modern surface combatants (so, not an aircraft carrier), say from the 1960's on, destroyer or larger (so not a corvette or frigate). Wind, sea direction and sea state also affect the pivot point, along with other factors. he key point is thatt the precise pivot point changes all the time with the varying conditions (like how fast you are actually going vice ordered speed), but generally hangs around close to the same spot for most conditions. The precise pivot point only really matters for precision navigation conditions, which are a large portion of the cases where the pivot point moves around a lot. F'r'ex, moving real slow in a narrow artificial channel. I'm not sure I would use the advance and transfer rule of thumb presented. Those are highly variable, but easy to reasonably approximate as you go along. |
Parzival | 25 Aug 2021 1:40 p.m. PST |
Hang on—(Consults recently purchased Armada rules)— Right. "At the stern." So I guess that answers that! In real life, when sailing (as per the OP): It doesn't really work that way. A ship's turn is a continuous process, which varies by vessel size, sail plan, existence of/location of centerboard, leeboard, or keel, current sail, and direction of wind vs. direction of turn (a tack and a jibe are different). A square rig turns differently than a fore-and-aft rig, a schooner turns differently than a lateen-rigged dhow, etc., etc.. By the way, turning a square rigger is a very complicated process that can even involve the ship moving briefly backwards. Indeed, square riggers are better at turning the stern through the wind—"wearing ship"— than turning the bow through the wind— opposite of the fore-and-aft "Marconi" rig. Most games are not trying to produce the complicated effects of turning a square-rigger, but are simply generalizing the process to "feel." Dealing with being "taken aback" and "caught in irons" is rarely introduced into a game. So the pivot point is simply a matter of convenience and designer's taste for the rules. Dealing with complications thus is more likely a factor of the number of ships a player is expected to control; if more than one, the likelihood a designer would want a realistic recreation plummets with every ship added. |
Blutarski | 25 Aug 2021 2:32 p.m. PST |
Recommend John Harland's excellent book "Seamanship in the Age of Sail" and two valuable articles from "The Mariner's Mirror" - "Some Eighteenth- and Nineteenth-century French Trials of Square-rigged Warships Tacking" by Patrice Decenciere. TMM Volume 97, No.4, Nov 2011, pp289-298. "Three French Sailing Ship Performance Trials" by Patrice Decenciere. TMM Volume 94, No.3, Aug 2008, pp. 276-284. B
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HMS Exeter | 25 Aug 2021 2:46 p.m. PST |
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Herkybird | 25 Aug 2021 3:02 p.m. PST |
I have ships turn pivot on the bow too. |
dantheman | 25 Aug 2021 4:33 p.m. PST |
Very complex process. You wearing, tacking, box hauling??? In short, I would keep it simple for wargaming. I pivot the stern using a template. Good enough for me. |
Nashville | 25 Aug 2021 5:51 p.m. PST |
thanks PER MY SAILING RULES for now Moving and turning. To turn, you keep the bow in place and move the stern up to the permissible angle of turn. Larger ships turn up to 45 degrees and more nimble ships can turn 90 degrees at various parts of the move.
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Oberlindes Sol LIC | 25 Aug 2021 8:48 p.m. PST |
My understanding was that a turn is correct as long as someone at the table says something to the effect of, "avast there, me buckos." |
miniMo | 26 Aug 2021 8:06 a.m. PST |
When you're running with the wind and have to come about, the proper call is: "Ready about, hard a lee!" Gives the crew a fighting chance to duck the boom when it swings across. Except for old 'Boomstopper' Johnson* over there, he's a bit hard of hearing ever since the first time he didn't duck. *that would be my grandfather in-law |
etotheipi | 26 Aug 2021 10:01 a.m. PST |
My understanding was that a turn is correct as long as someone at the table says something to the effect of, "avast there, me buckos." I once had another player get really discombobulated when I would start my turn by issuing the proper verbal orders to my ship. He finally blurted, "What crappy pirate movie did you get that gibberish from?" I replied, "Seamanship training to become an officer in the US Navy." He become more discombobulated. |
Col Durnford | 26 Aug 2021 1:50 p.m. PST |
Place the turning template at the bow and move the stern. |