Repiqueone | 18 Aug 2021 12:33 p.m. PST |
But his body would still be moulderin' in the grave. That's a fact! Doc, if I am too certain of what I know, I would suggest you may be far too certain of what you don't know. |
Brechtel198 | 18 Aug 2021 12:38 p.m. PST |
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Brechtel198 | 18 Aug 2021 12:39 p.m. PST |
Sorry, Blutarski, but I am not an ideologue. |
Brechtel198 | 18 Aug 2021 12:40 p.m. PST |
…the Lost Cause account contains some truths It surely contains one-emphasized by the term 'lost.' |
Repiqueone | 18 Aug 2021 12:51 p.m. PST |
Oh, Come on Brechtel! We can't be sure what he thinks being an ideologue means. Maybe he thinks we carve our best ideas into firewood. |
John the OFM | 18 Aug 2021 12:53 p.m. PST |
It could be a Lost Cause because nothing about it was worth saving. |
John the OFM | 18 Aug 2021 12:57 p.m. PST |
I wonder if doc wants to teach the chillun about the fallout from the Hayes Tilden election. Or what "posse comitatus" is really all about. Both are about keeping those uppity in their place. |
John the OFM | 18 Aug 2021 1:03 p.m. PST |
Anyway, I have something far more important to do, and that's painting Pulaski's Legion. I have Firing Line for the swordsmen, and Perry Continentals for the lancers. I can drill out the Perry hands for wire lances, but that's virtually impossible with Firing Line. The late lamented Firing Line also did dismounted Dragoons, which I will add. Then, I have some gabion earthworks to heavily drybrush for Yorktown. |
Repiqueone | 18 Aug 2021 1:06 p.m. PST |
I often wonder why the very religious never seem to speculate that the blacks, and their eventual treatment by this nation, including a successful resolution of racism and denied rights, may not be the ultimate test that God gave this nation for its redemption. Never seems to be considered by some. |
doc mcb | 18 Aug 2021 2:03 p.m. PST |
Bob, Lincoln said as much in his 2nd inaugural, and Chesnut in her diary, so yes, it has been considered. And still is today. I had not suspected you of believing in Divine Providence. As to Brown, the insanity case is easy enough to make (though his wife had the great comeback, that she never knew of her husband's insanity until she read it in the papers.) BUT how then do we explain his shrewdness, e.g. in leaving papers behind in the Maryland farmhouse (which his daughters otherwise cleaned out) including maps with cryptic markings suggesting other planned uprisings across the south? Totally false, but it ignited the south's paranoia, and Brown must have intended that. No, simply dismissing him as a nut will not work. Another unanswered question is why he switched from the plan of guerilla warfare in the mountains of Virginia, as Fred Douglass described it -- which was dangerous but not suicidal -- to the raid on Harpers Ferry which was far far more dangerous and promised even greater bloodshed if it had succeeded? Did he go to Harper's Ferry as Nat Turner or as Mary Dyer? Yes. |
doc mcb | 18 Aug 2021 2:07 p.m. PST |
–The victor strikes and the beaten man goes down But the years pass and the legend covers them both, The beaten cause turns into the magic cause, The victor has his victory for his pains– |
doc mcb | 18 Aug 2021 2:13 p.m. PST |
Blutarski, yes, thanks. I'm not so silly as to imagine I'm going to persuade hard-core opponents. To an extent I enjoy the fencing, and when I no longer do I will leave it. |
machinehead | 18 Aug 2021 2:17 p.m. PST |
Or have the thread nuked like the last one. |
John the OFM | 18 Aug 2021 2:27 p.m. PST |
Getting the previous thread nuked because you didn't like the way it was running was at the very least disingenuous. But what I really think will get me thrown in the DH for a well deserved "personal attack". For what it's worth, *I* submitted a complaint to have it nuked, because I thought it was inappropriate for a gaming board. Editor thought differently. OK. No problem. But for you, the OP, to seek to get it nuked, and succeeding, when it didn't go your way was priceless. It says a lot about your self proclaimed desire for a free and open discussion. You have a lot of nerve talking about others and their agendas. "Mommy! Make those bad people stop disagreeing with me!" |
John the OFM | 18 Aug 2021 2:32 p.m. PST |
Surprisingly, the most level discussion of John Brown and Harper's Ferry that I have read is in "Flashman and the Angel of the Lord". Fraser approaches it from the perspective of an Englishman without a dog in the fight. Plus, we get all the patented Flashman naughty adventures as a bonus. |
machinehead | 18 Aug 2021 2:42 p.m. PST |
"Mommy! Make those bad people stop disagreeing with me!" +1 and also LOL. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 18 Aug 2021 3:24 p.m. PST |
I often wonder why the very religious never seem to speculate that the blacks, and their eventual treatment by this nation, including a successful resolution of racism and denied rights, may not be the ultimate test that God gave this nation for its redemption. Perhaps because, from a Christian perspective, the 'ultimate test' is to be prepared for the Second Coming? |
doc mcb | 18 Aug 2021 3:32 p.m. PST |
Flash an is fun. Have you read flint's 1812 and 1824? |
Repiqueone | 18 Aug 2021 3:34 p.m. PST |
Doc, three things: 1. I am an atheist. The question of God's judgement was aimed at people who claim they are Christians. I would encourage them to read your references to Lincoln, and Chestnut ( though, as I remember, she was referring to losing the war as his judgement. Obviously that didn't work.) 2. One can be crazy as can be, and still be very smart. The two traits are not connected. Just as one can be sane and dumb as an ox, which is a more common condition. Also, never attribute things to clever planning when they might just be a random coincidence. A crazy man writes and plans lots of things that he never considers the consequences for. 3. A likely explanation is his insane, religious, meglomania called him to call on God to help him, and he expected God to repay his faith with cosmic intervention. He was undoubtedly a bit surprised and disappointed when things didn't work out. He went to Harper's Ferry because he hadn't read the local travel guides. |
doc mcb | 18 Aug 2021 3:36 p.m. PST |
Bill, yes, though my Calvinist theology is that when justified (saved) the believer enters eternity at that point, with the death of this body as a mostly irrelevant interruption of a permanent state. Like being promoted a grade in the same school. |
doc mcb | 18 Aug 2021 3:40 p.m. PST |
Bob, yes, your view of Brown is one of several possible interpretations. My guess is that at age 50 he was too impatient to start a long guerrilla campaign and decided to bet everything on a forlorn hope. But there are problems with both theories. |
doc mcb | 18 Aug 2021 3:42 p.m. PST |
John, I asked bill to nuke the thread because it was hijacked with COVID debate. This thread offers a fresh start. Sorry if I disappoint your expectations. And yet, here we are. |
doc mcb | 18 Aug 2021 3:50 p.m. PST |
Bob, here's the Chesnut quote I had in mind. Lots there to unpack. She thinks the tariff DID have something to do with the war, but what would she know? Note that she thinks that if the south does lose, AT LEAST they'll be rid of slavery. July 3 1862 If anything can reconcile me to the idea of a horrid failure after all efforts to make good our independence of Yankees, it is Lincoln's proclamation freeing the negroes. July 8 Table-talk to-day: This war was undertaken by us to shake off the yoke of foreign invaders. So we consider our cause righteous. The Yankees, since the war has begun, have discovered it is to free the slaves that they are fighting. So their cause is noble. They also expect to make the war pay. Yankees do not undertake anything that does not pay. They think we belong to them. We have been good milk cows – milked by the tariff, or skimmed. We let them have all of our hard earnings. We bear the ban of slavery; they get the money. Cotton pays everybody who handles it, sells it, manufactures it, but rarely pays the man who grows it. Second hand the Yankees received the wages of slavery. They grew rich. We grew poor. The receiver is as bad as the thief. That applies to us, too, for we received the savages they stole from Africa and brought to us in their slave-ships. As with the Egyptians, so it shall be with us: if they let us go, it must be across a Red Sea – but one made red by blood. |
John the OFM | 18 Aug 2021 4:07 p.m. PST |
Oh, you didn't like your thread being hijacked. That's rich. If all hijacked threads on TMP got nuked, there would be scant content. |
Repiqueone | 18 Aug 2021 4:07 p.m. PST |
Re: Chestnut So white grievance has deep roots? Sounds a lot like the beef the rural states have today. Not their fault. We're innocent victims. The other guy gets all the money. Not one thought or self-reflection on the very obvious attitudes, social structures, education limits, and lack of openness to change as being part of their suffering. Never admitting their own role in bringing disaster upon themselves. Very human, but very hypocritical, and preventing any possibility of curing the situation. |
Tortorella | 18 Aug 2021 5:51 p.m. PST |
Re: Chestnut Her remarks seem to result from her distress in searching for something to blame for the way things were going as the war went on, so she doubles down on the Yankee stereotypes I am no expert, but I am under the impression that research has shown that the South was very well off by 1860. Higher per capita income than nearly all of the North, and a great deal of personal wealth for the elite. I think part of this was because urban conditions in the North were so poverty-stricken, the upper Midwest not developed much, and agriculture in the North was based on family farming, as opposed to the large scale plantations of the South. Ms.Chestnut sounds a bit here like she is prepping for the Lost Cause narrative. She always makes for interesting reading. "Foreign invaders" caused the South to go to war? |
doc mcb | 18 Aug 2021 6:24 p.m. PST |
I don't think you read her with enough care. She certainly considers the south to bear guilt for slavery. |
doc mcb | 18 Aug 2021 6:26 p.m. PST |
And please spare me anything about stereotypes. That is what Bob deals in. |
Tortorella | 18 Aug 2021 9:09 p.m. PST |
Yes she does, re slavery, and she is a valuable historic resource. "Yankees do not undertake anything that does not pay" is a stereotype. This continues to be a tough topic, doc. I am going to look online for any curriculum data being compiled on the prevalence of related content changes that have been brought up here, in high schools or below. 1776 United, free of media associations, looks worth watching. I did not agree with some assumptions in the NYT 1619 project. Newsmax and Fox business models are not about objectivity, IMO. No matter what Fox says, it is the media, just like CNN. I would like to how how many Boards of Ed, state Ed departments are being pressured to make some of the changes in teaching history that we have been talking about. What are the specific changes? Then we can debate the merits more readily, I think. |
Brechtel198 | 19 Aug 2021 3:50 a.m. PST |
This thread offers a fresh start. So when are you going to ask this thread be nuked? |
doc mcb | 19 Aug 2021 5:06 a.m. PST |
If and when it veers off-topic. |
doc mcb | 19 Aug 2021 5:07 a.m. PST |
Yes, of course Chesnut stereotypes the Yankees. It is a game we all play. When dealing with groups, of whom you may know NO individuals, how else? Stereotypes are often wrong as applied to individuals, and sometimes are generally wrong as based on misunderstandings of other cultures -- but very often they are correct in aggregate. Ask any teacher to predict what types of students will be found in an average class at a particular grade level; the teacher will get it right most of the time. With teens there's always a whiner, there's always a wise guy, etc. We have to stereotype when working with people in large numbers whom we cannot know as individuals. |
Brechtel198 | 19 Aug 2021 5:09 a.m. PST |
If and when it veers off-topic. That being the case, are you going to ask for all threads that 'veer off-topic' be nuked? That's quite a few threads… |
doc mcb | 19 Aug 2021 5:12 a.m. PST |
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John the OFM | 19 Aug 2021 5:42 a.m. PST |
Funny. I've never had the right to ask that "my" threads that veered off topic be nuked. Since when do YOU get the authority or the right to ask for that? Is it something new in the FAQ? Are you special? It's fairly obvious that I have started a ton of threads. Many go way "off topic". And I've asked for some to be nuked. That request was never granted. Yet somehow you claim the right to determine if "your" thread may continue. You yourself have hijacked a few of my threads into new fabulous directions, and I never asked for THOSE to be nuked. How do YOU determine what is an acceptable nuking, and what is not? Just curious, since if YOU suddenly have this mysterious new power, I'd like to have some of that myself. |
machinehead | 19 Aug 2021 6:32 a.m. PST |
I want to be able to have comments in threads I'm reading that I disagree with nuked. That way all the comments will support only my point of view. |
Repiqueone | 19 Aug 2021 6:59 a.m. PST |
John, he was embarrassingly refuted by several people in the Thread That Was Not To Be Allowed, and he is being roundly refuted here. It's just that he is resistant to any facts that are contrary to his world view and a complete blindness to the fact he is in a minority of educators and in a minority of his fellow citizens. He has never offered one shred of evidence that CRT is being taught in High Schools, or that his formulation of a curriculum is answering any school system's actual needs. He has admitted a business connection to his cure for all that ails American High School education. That thread had to go. It was a memorial to his parochialism. |
doc mcb | 19 Aug 2021 7:34 a.m. PST |
My goodness gracious. Sorry if I've hurt your feelings. No business connection, just acting as a consultant. Tne point about what is actually being taught is a good one, though, because individual teachers have a lot of lee-way, and are often woefully unprepared. The well-prepared tend to have their own stuff, based on grad work and such; the less prepared may have to rely more on the text. I expect we all know that from our own experiences as students. Frankly, what ed majors are taught in undergrad ed courses is probably more important than the text, and that is where CRT in its formal state seems more often to be found. I believe the curricula with which I am familiar are sound and solid and truthful, and would be worth using quite apart from CRT. I would encourage all of you to read McClay's LAND OF HOPE. It was written before the current furor over CRT developed (though CRT has been around for decades), and is simply a very well-written and relatively short US survey that many schools would benefit from. It DOES take patriotism very seriously, and I recommend the Epilogue on "the shape of American patriotism." That would be a good thing to address in this or another thread. |
doc mcb | 19 Aug 2021 7:43 a.m. PST |
Briefly, McClay rejects the "soil and blood" basis for an AMERICAN patriotism; we are too large, demographically and geographically, for that to apply. But there remain two distinct notions of American patriotism. One is that America is an IDEA, a set of values and beliefs found in our great documents, and that anyone who subscribes to these ideas or ideals is or can become an American. This is a more "universal" patriotism. The rival idea is that American patriotism is based on our own PARTICULAR shared memories, or history, our experiences, as expressed in places like Arlington and Gettysburg. The first theory is found and held more strongly in academia; the second in popular culture. The first may be slightly uneasy at "flag-waving"; the second embraces it. There is room for, and benefits to, both. |
John the OFM | 19 Aug 2021 7:53 a.m. PST |
Nice deflection, doc. You just skip right over where you have the right to decide what is an acceptable hijack and what is not. I ask again. Is it in the FAQ? Is it a special arrangement you have? I really want to know, and I kind of think that you owe us an explanation. Hey! I know how to get this thread nuked! Are you vaccinated against Covid? Do you wear a mask where appropriate? Do you think Big Brother has the right to mandate both? Inquiring minds want to know. Did George Washington ever tell a lie? |
John the OFM | 19 Aug 2021 7:56 a.m. PST |
What do you think about the Hayes Tilden election? Was the Posse Comitatus Act's purpose to destroy any more advances in Civil Rights? Were the Carpetbaggers evil, or actively working for Civil Rights? Or both? |
Repiqueone | 19 Aug 2021 8:09 a.m. PST |
Doc, I believe that second definition of patriotism also tends to become coercive. It also has little about it that speaks to shared memories, but to social and political performative ritual. I, dare say, a lot of Americans have little or no understanding of our history. It is an easy patriotism. Just wear a pin in your lapel, voice truisms about America, and place flags liberally about your property. It is the tribal form of patriotism and can do great harm as the 1920s, 1950s, and recent history have amply shown. It is the patriotism of showing off to your neighbors, and taking note of any that aren't displaying bunting on their house. It is the patriotism that scoundrels love to wrap themselves in. It's slow decline in popular culture is why you are on your crusade. |
machinehead | 19 Aug 2021 8:20 a.m. PST |
Repiqueone, Exactly. There are around 19 million vets which is under 10% of the adult population. How many of those flag waving "patriots" were oh so "patriotic" when it was their time? Their lives at that time must have been more important or they were just plain chicken feces. Wrap themselves in the flag yet let others do the heavy lifting. |
Repiqueone | 19 Aug 2021 8:44 a.m. PST |
The truest patriotism is the one nobody witnesses. It is the time someone does the right thing when no one is around to applaud. It is voting in every election. If needs be, serving your country in time of crisis, and, most importantly, standing up to community or political pressures, to do the right thing as several citizens of both parties did in the last election. It's the hard to do patriotism, and it usually is absent flags, bunting, and loud speeches. It is the quiet patriotism and it has often saved this country. |
John the OFM | 19 Aug 2021 8:46 a.m. PST |
This all reminds me of the Betsy Ross myth and Rush Limbaugh. link Anyone infesting this AWI board know that Betsy Ross flags on a miniature battlefield are a source of mockery. Yet, they are acceptable, because the myth is part of our National DNA. I have them on 4 regiments… But I know better, and any newly painted regiments get Gostelowe or similar. Richardson is my Bible. The year before Rush Limbaugh died, the story goes that Nike wanted to release a limited edition sneaker with a Betsy Ross flag logo. It would probably cost only a few thousand bucks for the left foot and the same for the right. Then, allegedly, the demon Colin Kaepernick intervened, and using his vast powers as an influential washed up quarterback, forced Nike to stop. Cue Rush. He launched a campaign that admittedly raised money for wounded veterans' causes. BUT, he turned BR into a patriotic litmus test at the same time. It was classic. Defend the myth, proclaim your patriotism with a bumper sticker, stick it to CK, feel good about yourself, etc. And Rush got publicity. I was a listener at the time. I actually called and got as far as the screener who was definitely NOT interested in a "scholarly" perspective. "Thanks for calling. CLICK." |
doc mcb | 19 Aug 2021 9:14 a.m. PST |
Well, I agree with Bob about truest patriotism, but not about much else. It would have shocked me had he declared his support for a popular anything, including patriotism. John, stop whining, And yes, Rush never claimed to be other than an entertainer. But he knew his audience, and was crucially important with the "ditto" phenomenon. Machinehead, it has been 50 years since we had a draft. The military doesn't WANT a hundred million folks. But your number (19m) does not reflect the spouses and children of vets. Also, veterans are not evenly distributed through the population; there is a bit of a 'warrior class." |
doc mcb | 19 Aug 2021 9:19 a.m. PST |
Hayes-Tlden is complicated; why do you ask? Posse comitatus, or pussy communist in TANK, is also complex; based on the republican fear of standing armies, but perhaps applied for other reasons in some periods. Carpetbaggers were both. AND, these are the sorts of complexities that are tricky to handle in a short survey course or text. The simple explanation is often misleading. |
John the OFM | 19 Aug 2021 9:37 a.m. PST |
You're the one who "whined" when your thread took a detour that you didn't approve. I simply want the same privilege. |
Repiqueone | 19 Aug 2021 9:39 a.m. PST |
Doc, there is nothing wrong with advocating popular ideas, except when they are wrong, harmful, and exclusionary. Being popular has never made a thing right, and many an past unpopular idea is now accepted as being the correct answer. Patriotism is the most frequently misused of concepts, especially when it is imposed or demanded. It is the tool, in many countries, of authoritarian governments. Most of the Bill of Rights was created to halt the excesses of the fervent self-defined patriots. |
doc mcb | 19 Aug 2021 9:44 a.m. PST |
Most of the Bill of Rights was created to halt the excesses of the fervent self-defined patriots. Wwwhhhaaaattttt? I used to be arrogant in my intellect and superior education, but when I think of our ruling elite and their demonstrated incompetence, I find myself growing increasingly populist. |