"Games Workshop outdoes even themselves" Topic

Newsflash – Games Workshop gouges its customers.

That is meant as sarcasm of course. Unless someone has been living under a rock, GW's reputation for price-gouging is ancient news, certainly no revelation on the TMP boards.

I fully admit I really do love GW games and GW miniatures. And I also admit that dealing with them over the years is very much like being in an abusive relationship. I buy and play plenty of other company's games and minis. as well. But I've also been hooked on GW's worlds and models since the beginning.

But I thought I would mention this example because even I, a long time fan of GW and first-hand witness to their many shenanigans, was appalled.

Adeptus Titanicus is a game that scratched a particular itch for me. The scale of it also intrigues me, 6/8mm is a refreshing kind of change from the scales I usually game in. People suggested doing Battletech as an alternative. But GW's titan models have a quality about them that Battletech just doesn't satisfy for me.

So I got a great deal on the Horus Heresy starter set on Ebay, new in the box for $127 USD with free shipping. I went ahead and supplemented that with two Warlord Titans at $110 USD each. Finally I got some 3D printed ruined buildings from Etsy.

Ok cool! Good to go right? Well, no not quite.

I discover that in the starter set, you don't get cardboard command terminals or weapons cards for Warlord Titans. Ok, that's annoying but not game-breaking. So I go and order a pack of command terminals and cards directly from GW's site. I'm thinking for $25.00 USD surely the terminal pack will have like two terminals for each type of titan because they know players will need them.

Oh, no no. For $25.00 USD you get FIVE pieces of cardboard, with ONE terminal for a Warlord Titan. You want to play two Warlord Titans in a game? you have to buy TWO of these sets of cardboard tiles.

This is the terminal pack and the cards. These two accessories cost $37.50 USD total, almost $50.00 USD with shipping. And for the privilege of spending $50.00 USD with GW, you get one command terminal for one Warlord Titan, when GW knows full well that nearly all players will be running at least two Warlord Titans in their games.

Never mind the gross over-value GW places on this:

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GW thinks this is $37.50 USD in value. 16 tiny cards and 5 pieces of cardboard. For most companies that aren't demented, these accessories would be about $9.99 USD for BOTH as a set for crying out loud.

But beyond the gross over-pricing of basic accessories for the game, it's the brick in the face when you realize that when you spend upwards of $300 USD to play Adeptus Titanicus, GW STILL, STILL isn't satisfied. They MAKE SURE to short you somewhere and make you buy even more. Even $300 USD spread over three different boxed products doesn't get you enough to actually play the game properly. How is it possible that you spend $300 USD on any game and at the end discover that you are ONE command terminal short and you need to spend another $25 USD on another set of them to get ONE more command terminal you need?

It's gotten pathological with them. Somebody there or a group of people there I believe are suffering from some kind of neurological disorder. Or they took a corporate business class on maximum monetization and now believe it's a religion that they must give complete and utter fealty to.

So I just said oh hell no, and I photocopied the Warlord Titan terminal and glued it to some cardboard and made my own:

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I couldn't help but draw a comparison to two different ways that companies treat their customers (and what companies think of their customers).

GW sells you a $110 USD Warlord Titan model, and for the privilege you get no accessories for actually using the model in the game. They sell you all the accessories separately, and even the accessories are broken up into separate products – command terminals and cards. To play a single Warlord Titan in Adeptus Titanicus, it will cost you $147.50 USD.

Fantasy Flight Games on the other hand, with Star Wars Legion for example, gives you not only cards but all of the tokens needed to play their models in the game. You pay one price, and the model comes as a complete package out of the box.

That's seven stormtroopers, cards and tokens for $30.00 USD No trickery, no sorcery, no "boosters", no surprises. One price and done.

No reason whatsoever GW couldn't do this with Adeptus Titanicus. $110.00 USD and you get the titan model, cards, and a command terminal. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

If GW made Star Wars Legion, the stormtrooper squad would be a boxed set for $60.00 USD, the cards would be $12.50 USD, and the tokens would be $10.00 USD.

Funny that FFG can somehow "afford" to do this but a larger company, GW can't. Curious.

Unlike the incident where you feel you got ripped off about the flags being the wrong size, it seems you stepped into this one with your eyes open.
That's their business plan, and it's been that way for centuries.
Play something else.

I went into my FLGS to get some highly overpriced Contrast paints. I got just a few to see if they worked. Deciding my jaegers could use Dark Angels Green, I went to the paint rack and noticed a water pot for Citadel paints. I didn't even bother to check the price. I just figured my old Rubbermaid dish would be good enough.

But yeah. It's like crack.
I've been back two more times to get "just one more color" and I leave with 3 or 4.

@John the OFM,

Indeed! I also saw that official "GW water pot" at my local gaming store a while back. I could not help but laugh out loud. Oh look! A $20.00 USD coffee cup. How quaint!

I went home and discovered that in our cupboards we too possess the same technology of ceramic things that hold water in them.

Amazing!

:P

@John,

Well, like I said that's why I describe it as an abusive relationship. I quite like their models and games and so I have subjected myself to the abuse and put up with it. But ain't no lying about it, this crap gets old.

it the official small tin of sand that gets me

@Wackmole9,

Oh dear God yes.

I mean a craft store for crying out loud – floral sand, three lbs. of the stuff for $3.99 USD.

Scenery products are the one thing I've always been sure to steer my friends away from GW with.

Once someone sees a company like Scenic Express, where you can get a bag of static grass, flock or modeling sand that is literally like 30-50 times or more the amount you get in a GW tub for darn near the same price, you realize how arrogant GW really is.

How in the hell is this $16.98 USD for 64 ounces (1,814 grams!!):

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…and this is $8.50 USD for 15 grams (1/120th the amount you get above!!):

There's a sucker born every minute, and Games Workshop knows P.T Barnum.

@CFeicht,

Indeed. I'm beginning to wonder if Barnum is the long, lost relative of somebody who works in the GW marketing dept. They certainly got some of his DNA.

They do it -- and will continue to do it -- because enough people keep buying their products at their price point.

I keep thinking cell phone providers and cell service
providers all took product and marketing lessons from
GW…

@79thPA,

True enough. It's frustrating because they still do offer starter sets that are genuinely excellent value. But then they gouge all the extras on the back end to get all of that money back that you saved up front.

It's a rather insidious and slimy way of making you think you got a good deal up front only to have all the savings given right back to them on the flip side.

If GW could only stop being so hyper-obsessive about vacuuming up every last coin that might roll away from them and actually let customers keep the savings they got in the starter sets it would be a whole different ball game.

That's why I call it pathological. There is something really deeper going on with GW even beyond the "typical" Capitalist company. They specialize in doing this, it's a feature of their business model, not an abomination. It's genuinely disturbing.

@Ed Mohrmann,

Sure seems like it!

I hope not to offend too many folk, but their pricing seems quite reasonable, as folk buy it without any need.

It is not medicine or food.

My dentist charges £170.00 GBP per hour which is quite normal for such services.
My car service costs £250.00 GBP
My phone costs £100.00 GBP
etc.

Gamers often expect to pay "hobby" prices, as surely the seller is not trying to make money.
Maybe their own jobs should just charge hobby prices?

GW is selling a "desire" item not a necessity item.

If i were to comment on odd pricing it would be the customers and cost of torn jeans.
Observe the queues outside Apple shops when a new phone is released.

martin

link

Ah, torn jeans. Alan Jackson's net worth is around $150 USD million. Yet in concert he wears torn jeans.

But I got into this hobby through historical. A Lee, Washington or Napoleon costs just as much as a Spanish guerrilla riding a mule. When I saw the price of a plastic Ultramarine Apothecary, I just laughed out loud and said "Suckers!" I think I offended a kid standing next to me.

@martin,

Well, I see the point you are making, but I think it's a bit displaced and doesn't address the issue.

The issue isn't whether or not GW products are a necessity. Obviously none of us need gaming products, we buy them for entertainment and enjoyment. Most certainly it's not like paying for shelter, food, clothing, etc.

But that isn't the point.

The point is that within an established set of reasonable expectations of a particular product and what it claims to do, GW breaks up the "necessity-component part" of their entertainment products and acts as if they were optional.

Imagine buying Monopoly and when you get home you find out the base game box is only a "starter" and you have to buy the cards and plastic houses and hotels separately!

Think about it this way. A Warlord Titan is a model that you can build and paint. It makes no particular guarantee and has no warranty that you will be able to paint it to GW standards, or even build it correctly. You are buying a model with with the understanding it doesn't come with paint or glue, etc.

Ok, cool.

However, the Warlord Titan as a PLAYING PIECE in a game that GW also sells, KNOWS that you need those components to make the model run in a game. Otherwise it's just a static display model the same way you would buy a Tamiya Japanese Zero fighter plane or whatever.

The idea that the cards and command terminals would be sold separately, and on top of it sold at jacked up prices to me is manipulating and screwing the customer.

Maybe this isn't the ideal analogy, but in my opinion at least this would be like agreeing to pay $20,000 USD for a new car, and then the day you go to pick it up the dealership tells you, "OH, the tires? Oh no, tires come in a separate 'booster' pack, you don't get the tires with the car. Oopsies!"

So you bought the car but it can't go anywhere because it's on freaking cinder blocks, and you need to fork over another $2,000 USD so that the car has round things that it can roll on and so you can actually drive it home.

Oh, and by the way – the transmission is another 'booster pack' that you have to buy separately for $5,000. USD

So in the end that $20,000 USD car is really $27,000 USD to make it actually function the way it was advertised and intended.

Now that sounds totally silly, right? But in my mind that is what is going on here.

Baranovich, have you bought a vehicle lately? The standard spare can't be driven about 40mph. If you want a real spare, you pay extra. And the price of a pickup truck doesn't include the tailgate. For that matter, price a motel for a convention, and try to get them to tell you what you'll actually pay. They won't do it. Oh, they'll quote you a rate--but it's plus all kinds of local fees and taxes which will certainly show up on you bill. This is exactly what people deserve who look at that first low price and not the real price. It's what I deserve for living in a country of such people.

As for GW, as has been pointed out, they've been doing this for a generation. I might have some sympathy with a 12 year old, but an adult who buys into the GW system knows exactly what he's doing, and so forfeits whining privileges.

They make nice paints. Buy the paints. (Buy the little 3D-printed support which keeps them from toppling over from someone else.) Buy the cheap intro castings if you can find a use for them. But playing a GW game will only end in tears.

I've wondered about the other things people use GW figures for--I mean, they are well designed figures (in many cases). I have three units of skinks (36 figures for $2 USD at the game store auction) in my Saga fantasy army. Another gamer uses House Escher figures for punk types for a science fiction game. Do you suppose that, if I collected stories like this and wrote them up, I could get them published in White Dwarf?

Grelber

Robert,
The last time I bought a car, I had them add in a full sized spare as well as a few other options into the original price. (It's nice when you have 3 dealerships within 15 miles of each other.)

@Robert,

Ummmm…you're comparing the type of spare tire you can choose from when buying a car to not getting a transmission when you buy it? Or not having the tailgate of a pickup truck not being included in the sticker price with not getting tires?

Those things, if you don't buy them, don't PREVENT you from driving the car out of the dealer lot. Those things being extra is indeed crazy and unfair, no doubt of that.

However, not having actual tires or an actual transmission in the car however will prevent you from driving the car out of the dealer lot.

Those options that you point out might be outrageous things to charge car customers for as options to be sure, but that is absolutely not the same thing as if a car's quoted price didn't include the transmission!

It's not about the tacked on or hidden fees in things. Those are annoying and unfair to be sure! But it misses the point.

Imagine in your scenario of booking a convention hall at a hotel, and you're told when you get there to set up your event that the WALLS aren't included. That the space you rented after all is nothing but a marked off section of parking spaces outside and they give you a few tarps to stand under. And you just have to do it in the parking lot and hope it doesn't rain.

That's another level of scammery and gouging that goes way beyond merely "tacking on fees" to an established and agreed to product.

Also, as far me being an adult and I should know better – did you not read the beginning of my original post? I say quite openly and plainly that buying and using GW products is like being in an abusive relationship.

Robert, I know GW does this. I've known it for ten years or more. I'm not talking about this from the perspective of I should know better as a grown person therefore I have no business complaining about being gouged.

A 12 year old generally isn't in control of their own money. If a 12 year old wants GW stuff they still have to go to their parents to get the credit or debit card. It's still the parents who will discover the shady practices and price gouging. The 12 years old is merely a side-player, he's not active in dealing with the way the company sells their stuff.

I'm a customer who enjoys the quality of GW miniatures and the worlds and games they create behind those miniatures. Therefore I'm willing to spend money on their products.

You're pinning the blame on the wrong party here.

It's not me doing the wrongdoing for buying their products. It's THEM for doing the slimy business practices and price gouging.

Me pointing it out and not being happy about it doesn't mean the solution is I should simply not be their customer any more. The solution is they should stop doing what they are doing because it's wrong!

Is that likely to happen? No. But please don't conflate this into I should know better. GW should know better as a company, that's the point.

I have pointed out GW's practices in stores where kids can here me. You're complaining on TMP. Is there ANYONE on TMP who doesn't know this is how GW does business?

[Just to check: was it actually unplayable without the cards? From here, they look like damage records. Was there no way to create records from the information in the set?]

But in fact all the franchise wargames companies work on pretty much the GW model: wait just a bit, and neither the rules nor the armies they sold you will work in their own games. And that's if you're lucky. Most of the time, the company folds before manufacturing all the necessary components, or the franchise owner takes back the rights so it's actually illegal to make the necessary parts, and any future miniatures will be in another scale.

(This would be illegal if they were selling cars, at least in the US. Manufacturers are required to maintain spare parts inventories for at least five years after they sell the car.)

And the franchise wargame companies will go on doing this as long as we let them. GW just made a killing off you Baranovich. Do you think they're not going to do it again because you grumbled on TMP after handing over the money? Did reviews not tell you the system wasn't playable as sold? Or did you not check reviews?

When we stop paying, this will cease to be a good business model. As long as we grumble and pay, we deserve this.

So this is interesting.

On Forgeworld's site, they have a resin Warlord Titan for sale. This kit includes both the command terminal and cards. Granted, the box price is higher than the standard plastic Warlord Titan, but it is in resin and therefore kind of a specialty item for Adeptus Titanicus.

I find it curious that Forgeworld can manage to package a titan and give you all the necessary components to actually use the model to play games with but somehow GW can't do it.

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The answer is simple. This is a planned marketing strategy which has enabled the company to be highly profitable. It seems the average consumer of their products is not offended by it or they would be in trouble. If you are a steady consumer of theirs this practice should be a norm.

A La Carte wargames

On the plus side, when GW eventually decides to reboot the rules for AT, they won't need to recall all the Titan boxes in circulation, pulp the old accessories, & reprint noew ones. They'll just need to reprint the accessories on the website & sell those. Forgeworld is different because they don't need to have a shelf-presence in stores. I would wager to guess the majority of FW's business is mail order, or special order in GW stores.

Damon.

This is why I took a hard pass on AT18. It was bad enough that they made it 8mm scale so that all of us with Epic armies couldn't use them. Then they pull crap like this.

Sorry, GW. Not interested.

I understand Baranovich's frustration, both with GW in this instance and other aspects of the hobby in general. I doubt that it is going to change things though. Like it or not GW is a very successful company and their pricing policy and marketing must be working or they wouldn't be making the money that they are.
For every Baranovich that objects to paying for 'add-ons' just so that they can play the game there will be a huge number of customers that will think that it is cool to be able to buy the extras. I dropped out of the GW hobby world sometime ago with some regret but simply found that historical gaming was more fun for me. When ever I get the urge to go back to buy and paint some more Necrons, it is not really the cost or the over complicated models that put me off but the reminder that I still have a British Waterloo army to finish. Oh and I really should start my Brunswick contingent and then there is the Wars of the Roses army to add to and I really must get around to starting my Roman Army and I would like a Royalist ECW army. Then there's my Samurai that I could expand or my French Indian wars – did I mention my early World War Two British army? You get the picture. As wargamers, We have never had so many opportunities and choices. Perhaps baranovich can point us in the direction of some of the games that he enjoys. As a shameless plug for my own blog, I covered this in an article in 2015 when the Age of Sigmar was launched – not much has changed. You can read it hear if you are interested.

link

Happy Modelling!

The "successful business model" of GW is nothing but churn. They DON'T want old timers to use the same old figures for years.

My own personal example, from the 90s. I bought a ton of Orcs and goblins for $50 USD at a convention flea market on a Sunday afternoon, just before leaving.
There were over a hundred very cute silly Forest Goblins that were fine in the current edition. Then the new Orc and Goblin codex for the next edition came out, and Forest Goblins were nowhere to be found. I got nearly the same number of lovely Heartbreaker goblins which were oddly enough generic enough to be useable. But not useable in "official" games.
Well, my son wasn't as interested in them as I thought he would be, so they just lingered around until eBay.

Then I noticed the approximately 2-3 year life cycle of various Warhammer Fantasy/40K editions. The new rules came in a box with 2 factions, the codices for which must be bought separately. Ok. No problem. Then subsequent races were given abilities to defeat devastatingly earlier races in the same edition. By the time all the races were covered, the final were "broken" and the first were unplayable. Immediately the next edition came out, with 2 different races/factions in the starter box. Rinse and repeat.
Some put up with this, proudly, even though they were then "forced" to buy new models.
But some had the "fool me twice…" attitude, or discovered girls.

But, and here's the key, a new crop came in. They would go through the same cycle, some staying through the churn, some moving on after 2 cycles.

Some other companies are following that model, but being historical they're limited.
Battlefront can't exactly produce Doomblaster Sherman tanks that vary with each edition. But they can and did change the rules to make new "codices" necessary and then force you to buy separately Cards. They also changed the composition of units so your old ones are not totally compatible. But it's now TANKS TANKS TSNKS, where the older editions st least had a semblance of combined arms.

Warlord is introducing new scales for ACW, so you can't use other companies' figures. Ditto their naval games. They also have odd new fantasy that I'm not interested in at all.

Copiers of the GW model are somewhat limited in that you cannot trademark a T-34 tank or a British Grenadier. But they can still practice churn.

A number of fan boys on Youtube seem to be taking notice of how badly GW pays their designers. This was ironically brought to light when GW seemingly gave them a nice bonus recently.

The only GW range I bought into was Lord of the Rings.. the starter boxes were reasonable and it was really up to you what extra figures you bought. Making rulebooks available outside the starter setswas also helpful.
I didn't feel there was a systemic rip off going on, though I lost interest with their more fanciful non-canon offerings.
I suppose with their own creations, they have more freedom to keep going with the endless churn. And as noted, they're not alone in doing this.
They like new, fresh meat, not people who've been collecting armies for decades!

Yeah it's ridiculous, so that's why I use the App "Titan Datasheets" instead of those stupid consoles.

" you have to buy TWO of these sets of cardboard tiles."

No. You only need buy one. I'll leave you to figure out the rest.

I'm not sure why people would expect to see command terminals for Warlords in the boxed starter, when they're not included in it. Lots of systems have cut-down versions in intro sets. Anyway, there's no need to buy even one copy, you could have saved yourself $25 USD, Baranovich:

PDF link

I'll not collect it myself, but had a game at the weekend and it was fun enough, variety is the spice of life. My friend's printed off templates on photo paper and will either use magnets with them or stick to foamboard.

We can complain about it until the cows come home but sadly there are enough people out there willing to pay it that it's a very successful business model.* No CEO in their right mind is going to give up the kind of profits and growth they have seen for the sake of soothing some irritated gamers. There are companies that practice far more unethical price-gouging for less.

* Or rather, it has been a very successful business model for many years. Whether it continues to be remains to be seen, as they appear to have lost something like 20% of their share price recently and now have negative year-on-year performance, so maybe this is the turning point for them. I suspect not—the market seems to be panicking because freight costs are increasing, but I don't think that's likely to be as much of an issue as investors seem to think.

I've lost count of the amount of possible wargamers who started with disgusting bunch of scumbags and realized they were being riped off and abandoned the hobby and looked no further and who can blame them.
If your still buying this crap you have no right to complain.
Do your self a favor and put all that hard earned money in some company that deserve your custom.