"Poland to buy M1A2" Topic

Poland to buy 250 M1A2 tanks. Article from MSN.

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Can they please take the R. Lee Ermy ads with them?

It's interesting that they didn't keep buying Leopards.

Probably, in large part, the former Marine tanks.

Good vehicle, battle proven. We in Australia bought some too.

Wasn't Germany going through some investigation regarding their tanks?

Can they please take the R. Lee Ermy ads with them?

I didn't see any ? I like Gunny ! USMC Vietnam Vet … got my respect … Sadly he died a few year back … RIP Gunny …

BTW the M1s are worked on, upgraded, etc., in Lima, OH. A couple of hours from where I live ! Never been there. But worked with the early version of the M1, the M1IP when I was a Mech Co Cdr. '87 -'89 …

Marines never had A2s, they stopped at A1s.

The US has a huge stockpile of tanks we can likely send them if they aren't new builds. Leopard II is a great tank, but has been taking it on the chin recently (fairly or not) due to issues with the Turks lack of success with them.

Also, Poland is trying very hard to become a very close ally to the US and has been for the past few years. They see close US ties as the best hedge against Russia and a bargaining chip to play in their relations with the EU.

Legion4, if you are a regular viewer of any of the History channels, every commercial break features an ad for Ermy's old Mail Call program, in which he touts the merit of the Abrams. Sometimes twice in one break.

nnascati – I am a regular viewer of the History Channel. And saw Most of the Mail Call episodes. But I only have 1 History Channel … 🤔 And it is no longer shown there … 😥

The US has a huge stockpile of tanks we can likely send them if they aren't new builds.

IIRC, the US had about 2000 M1s in "mothballs" ? Regardless, all in service get upgrades to the newer version, AFAIK.

Leopard II is a great tank, but has been taking it on the chin recently (fairly or not) due to issues with the Turks lack of success with them.

The Turks demonstrated they may need a little more training in combined arms warfare. IIRC they lost 16 M60 MBTs and 8 Leo A2s…

nsolomon99 +1

Yes its a shame the Asutralian submarine purchasing mob don't use the same logic as the tank purchasing mob and buy something that a) is available b) works c)is a reasonable price and d) can be delivered before they are obselete…….

korsun0, point of Aussie submarine building fiasco was politics – ie saving South Australian seats after they let the car industry collapse.

Leopard II is a great tank, but has been taking it on the chin recently (fairly or not) due to issues with the Turks lack of success with them.

Saudis lost at least 20 M1 Abrams in Yemen. It's all about how you use it.

And as Legion said, Turkish ground force haven't proven themselves to be competent.

Also, Poland is trying very hard to become a very close ally to the US and has been for the past few years. They see close US ties as the best hedge against Russia and a bargaining chip to play in their relations with the EU.

Truth is Poland is sliding back into authoritarianism and the EU isn't happy with them. Hence US who no longer cares who their allies are as long as they're not Russian, is a safer bet.

Truth is Poland is sliding back into authoritarianism and the EU isn't happy with them. Hence US who no longer cares who their allies are as long as they're not Russian, is a safer bet.

Whether that's true or not, it's certainly true that Germany is not particularly interested in opposing Russian interests, given their energy deals. M1 over Leopard is making a political point that way.

gregmita2,

Some info on EU's concerns about Poland (also Hungary):

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link

link

It should be noted Hungary has order brand new Leopard 2A7s, Lynx AFVs and Panzerhuabitze 2000 – all from Germany!

The other truth is Poland's trying to do defence on the cheap and many of its procurement processes have been completely derailed (eg helicopter procurement which has resulted in grand total of 8 helicopters being acquired despite requirement for over 100, submarine procurement program (total failure), corvette program (1 delivered as virtually unarmed OPV) or turned into local jobs programs with little defence utility (eg upgrading BMP-1s).

Second hand M1s make sense here. It will be interesting as to upgrade program ie what standards and even whether they are upgraded. Poland acquired Leo 2s and then delayed upgrades for a long time (have finally started).

Poland jumps up and down about Russia but it's defence procurement process is neither efficient nor really geared towards actually defending the country.

Arealdeadone,
They are getting the SEP V3 , the same one as Australia is getting. This is the most current one in the US inventory. These are rebuilt from the ground up … everything is stripped out of them and rebuilt with brand new LRUs. You'll find that the Leopards go through a similar process.
And your links are almost laughable… so some EU countries don't like Poland and Hungary because they aren't sheep ?

Laughable to you but not Hungarians and Poles who are finding themselves living in increasingly illiberal societies.

I guess you are one of those Australians who approve of the police raiding media organisations, gaoling of whistle-blower and new laws that are also helping this country slowly go down the authoritarian pathway (everything (including latest batch even some government senators are backing at because they would destroy NGO right to advocate for minority and groups).

Saudis lost at least 20 M1 Abrams in Yemen. It's all about how you use it.

And as Legion said, Turkish ground force haven't proven themselves to be competent.

Yes as I frequently have said weapons systems are only has good as troops/crew behind it + capable leadership.

It appears the Arab[& Iranian] forces are not very good at soldiering, etc., in the 20th & 21st Centuries. They some how just don't get it … about Air-Land Battle doctrine and modern mobile Combined Arms Warfare.

Arealdeadone, I assume you are one of those people who approve of letting in hoards of economic migrants posing as legitimate refugees then ?
Or trial by media ?
Since the EU demanded Poland and Hungary take in Islamic refugees and they told them to go jump , I'd expect the left wing media to do the sort of crap you put in your links

I assume you are one of those people who approve of letting in hoards of economic migrants posing as legitimate refugees then ?

Not at all – in fact I am completely opposed to immigration these days – it worked back when the west had lots of factories but now it serves to impoverish the working classes (I am a socialist after all and oppose neoliberal classes and their woke useful idiots).

But I am all for maintaining democratic conventions such as freedom of press, freedom of speech and freedom of right to protest.

As Voltaire may (or may not have) said:

"I disapprove of what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

In case of both Poland and Hungary it's more than just about refugees (which Czech Republic, Slovakia and a few others also didn't accept but didn't get labelled as authoritarian). There are major institutional changes in Poland and Hungary that are authoritarian in nature and erode civil liberties and entrench existing governments in power.

Authoritarianism is creeping into all democracies but Eastern European countries are particularly vulnerable – not just Poland and Hungary but Romania, Bulgaria and surprisingly Slovenia have all had creeping authoritarianism.

Maybe if you read "more laughable" articles you'd gain a better understanding.

@arealdeadone
I wanted to avoid the specifics of Polish local politics and concentrate on the relationship between EU mainstays and Russia. Looks like the first article you linked even talks about that, on how to get Poland to back up the rest of the EU in opposing Nordstream 2. So much for that one! Even Mr. Biden isn't on the writer's side there.
This really makes you wonder if anyone actually cares about the supposed Russian threat.

gregmita2,

In reality the Russians are not a threat to western or even central Europe. The Germans etc accept Russia as a fellow great power even if they don't see eye-to-eye with them.

The Russians only get agitated when Americans/Europeans start doing things that affect their security such as trying to absorb Ukraine and Georgia into NATO or smash old Russian allies like Syria, Libya etc.

Note Russia generally tolerated absorption of Baltics into NATO on the provision that no NATO ground troops would be based there (and lo and behold that never worked out) – again Russians did not oppose NATO basing fighter aircraft in Baltics for air policing (these countries have no air forces).

The Russian foreign policy objectives are to maintain strategic depth in defence and to create a global acceptance of the policy of "spheres of influence."

If the west pulls missile defence from Eastern Europe, stops NATO's eastern expansion and stops interfering in Russians internal politics, peace with Russia is largely achieved.

Instead the stupid Americans still think it's 1953 and continue poking the Russian bear whilst the Chinese dragon continues to grow in power.

To me it only makes sense that the Poles buy US M1A2s. They are US/NATO allies. Not that other US/NATO allies have bought or produced other good MBTs. There are a good number of MBTs out there.

But I think part of the reasons they got M1A2s is a little "politic'n". But again no doubt the M1A2 is one of the better MBTs out there … However, it also is a factor of easier resupply of ammo, parts, etc.

But as I often post, a weapon system is only as good as the troop/crew using it is, plus good leadership …