"1776 and abolition of slavery" Topic

Yes, a discussion … not an argument …

It is interesting to see this forum also turn.

Back when "Occupy Wall Street" was a thing I was living in China. I recall watching on TV many protestors naming major banks, politicians and institutions as the cause of the US recession. They obviously were. I recall saying to my teacher there how I was kind of proud that so many young people seemed somewhat informed about the great financial crisis still dragging on. I am not saying the "Occupy" movement was organized, just that some did their homework. I have not forgotten the lesson my teacher gave me then. He said "all those logos & company names on those signs will now spend tremendous amounts of money distracting & dividing you people from all you have left." I didn't quite know what that was at the time, but I believe we are seeing the results of those investments almost everywhere now. Even here, taking sides and shots at each other while more jobs just in the last few months head to automation & overseas through generous taxpayer incentivized provisions. Hmm. Could that be why we are trying to figure out if our neighbors are racist? We wouldn't want to present a united front against the small number of people causing epic decline would we?

While considering that, go place an online food order at a corporate restaurant, since your vendor of choice would hate to have to hire someone to answer the phone. Just economics my friends. Hey look, a Robert E. Lee statue at Gettysburg, get it down! It takes courage to address real problems. Sadly, it seems to only take a little cash investment in a narrative to distract from addressing them. Do you really think its racism and not automation & outsourcing? Where have we seen this before? "States Rights". You know, when average poor/enslaved southerners had all their rights infringed upon? Was it the "right" where they wanted a decent or any wage for work? "Preserve the Union". You know, but don't try to form one at work. Or my personal favorite after the Civil War – the Chinese are taking all our jobs! Are you sure it was "them" the "Chinese" that took them? If you think your neighbors in 2021 are the cause of difficult history, you must have your covid mask up over your eyes.

My assumption is all the people on here are grown adults playing with toy soldiers. Not sure we could connect with this many similarly interested friends without TMP. It's a great site.

…it is flawed by the fact that drug lords seldom (I assume) see themselves as good guys…

Most of them (that give statements outside the theatre that is the courtroom) consider themselves as oppressed providers of products that people are denied by an oppressive government. They make huge rewards that are justified by the huge risk (financial and to life) that they take in their business.

I recall watching on TV many protestors naming major banks, politicians and institutions as the cause of the US recession. They obviously were.

So it was banks, politicians, and institutions and not customers who bought the products? Yeah, must be, corporations don't need customers buying something to make money.

Also, couldn't have been all the people taking jobs that were supported by money when they didn't understand how it worked. Nah, corporations don't need anybody to do anything, either.

It's interesting how people who are complicit with something and gain benefit will readily blame someone else when it turns out to be unsustainable.

Legion 4, yes indeed.

etotheipi – I agree on the drug lord response 100%. I don't completely disagree on the corporate response, as I don't blame only business for the recession, but political leaders and major institutions authored the initial legislation to give loans to people that clearly had no ability to pay them back. Bailouts were more like an apology (my opinion) to lenders from the folks on Capitol Hill because they knew they were guilty. Back then I think they buried the sin under "homeownership" & now we are watching it called "affordable housing".

So my point was, it's not a grocery store cashier writing the laws or lending the money, it's the cashier being foreclosed on through them. It's not a systemic system of hate for one another causing that cashier to lose or not get a job, it's investment in a self checkout register. The cashier also isn't buying hundreds of hours of expensive advertising across media to reinforce a race & equity narrative.

I was on top of a mountain in China. People walked down it to work and back up it after, but what I saw – people went to work there in massive numbers. Some of those people made toys for the US. I'd like to see what all the corporate and legislative investment in bad loans, race & equity would look like if it instead went to a factory in any major US state or city. I'm simply assuming (maybe I'm wrong), that people working for a sustainable living would be too busy to commit crimes, fall for these narratives, sign up for government support and make bad financial decisions with "their own" money. At one time major American cities seemed prosperous. Louis Marx made toy soldiers here and employed a lot of people. Something went wrong. I doubt it was the wage earner that sculpted my Battle of the Blue and Gray Set or the sudden realization that we should hate our neighbors.

He is not here for discussion doc mcb as it is obvious he approaches all of these discussions as a prosecuting attorney questioned you, your beliefs, and thoughts as if you sit in front of the judge and jury --also him.
He will ramble on and on in his examinations and cross examinations attempting at every turn to exhibit what he believes to be his superior intellectual and moral qualities.

That was my experience as well … I thought I was on an episode of LAW & ORDER … I have not heard of being interrogated or grilled like that even in S.E.R.E. training …

What bothers me is your attitude. You seem to think of yourself as a tough but fair professor trying to enforce disciplined thought. The problem is that your "students" are more knowledgeable than you, so you try to score points by picking nits.

It appears I'm not the only one to think this as well …

I actually do not mind being grilled. That is the way history seminars typically work. Often the prof destroys everyone's first paper, or first draft of a paper, and then requires everyone in the seminar (typically under a dozen, maybe even just 3 or 4) to read and critique EACH OTHERS' papers, in class, in front of them. Public humiliation is a great incentive to get it right the first time.

My problem with Charge is that he rarely actually addresses my points, but nitpicks and deflects. I assume he is intelligent enough to understand the point, but chooses not to.

I asked him, earlier on this thread, what books on slavery he has read, and offered a list of the basic standard works. His silence means, I suspect, that he hasn't read any of them. That's fine; it is a lot of work, and what graduate students keep very busy with. I would not expect non-professionals to be familiar with multiple competing interpretations. But it means he can only attack my position without offering any real alternative, but just a general derision and cynicism.

I agree with that from my experience with "the person of interest" currently under "lock & key". 🐶🏠

I actually do not mind being grilled

Well a little "grilling" is tolerable. But "Medium Rare" vs "Very Well Done" to the point of looking like charcoal is a bit much. 🔥IMO of course …

Yes. Moderatiion in everything (including moderation!).

Gentlemen, this is music to my ears. A spirited discussion is not an opportunity to show off argument skills or make personal judgements about people here.

I love these discussions until they cross the line where the goal is to appear to win rather than learn. Hold this line and we all win.

doc mcb & tortorella +1 each ! Yes, in many cases just agree to disagree and move on. That is what adults do, IMO …