"Wars of the Roses armies - deployment?" Topic

Looking at images of wargames armies laid out on the table, one can get the impression that each 'battle' deployed in 'blocks' of homogenous troop types: men-at-arms in the centre, flanked by billmen, which in turn were flanked by archers.

This looks very nice, and must facilitate writing games rules. But does it have any basis in contemporary evidence or even in common sense? Why would you concentrate your heaviest troops all in one place in the line? And if I, as a knight, brought infantry with me to the battle, why would I consent to be separated from them?

Might anyone recommend a decent book on this score? Thanks in advance!

redcoat, if there were ANY contemporary book on WOTR tactics, you'd find a lot less argument on TMP. People keep posting here as though we were hiding a tactical manual, but check the bibliographies in any decent book on WOTR and you can see how little straw goes into these bricks.

That said, check out English use of "herces" in the HYW, and ask yourself whether even a medieval tactician would not try to sort out missile and melee troops. Here's some discussion (not mine) from the PostGraduate Chronicles
link
Remember, usually the working assumption is that WOTR armies are continuing HYW tactical practice, and we're taking such wild guesses on the size of WOTR armies that we frequently can't tell whether or not we're bathtubbing a particular battle.

I agree that it seems unlikely that men-at-arms were organized in separate groups. I think it more likely that each they formed in the front alongside their retinue leader with the billmen of the retinue massed behind them, probably with the most heavily armed billmen closer to the front. Archers would be deployed out in front, and may or may not have been under the command of their retinue's leader. I get the impression that the commander of the army would delegate commanders for the combined archers. If anyone finds that WOTR tactical manual, I'd sure love to see it.

I've lent my copy to the Earl of Warwick. You can borrow it if he ever returns it.

I've read that some men at arms would be mixed in with the billmen in order to stiffen their resolve, and add support and perhaps leadership. Not sure if that was done, but it does make sense to me for civilian-based armies, as opposed to full-time, professional ones, the latter of which I imagine were rare back in the day.

I've read that some men at arms would be mixed in with the billmen in order to stiffen their resolve, and add support and perhaps leadership.

I've not seen that in any primary sources. Do you remember where you read it?

Not sure if that was done, but it does make sense to me for civilian-based armies, as opposed to full-time, professional ones, the latter of which I imagine were rare back in the day.

In the WOTR, the bulk of the troops that did the actual fighting were retinue men – in other words paid full-time professional soldiers.

Are there any primary sources that say men-at-arms and billmen WERE NOT mixed?

Are there any primary sources that say men-at-arms and billmen WERE NOT mixed?

I'm not aware of any.

I don't think any mention the absence of pulsed gamma radiation hand weapons either.

If I were an archer mixed in with retinue bellmen and armored bill men were closing to melee contact, I would be making my way to the rear of my unit quickly. Wouldn't this cause gaps in the formation. I just don't picture archers in a jack or light armor, armed with a sword standing up against a unit of retinue bill or dismounted men at arms. I have no source for this but it seems logical to me.

I think you hit on the speculative aspect of this. Yes it would make since to try to keep your retinue together, particularly if you dismounted your men at arms. And I would agree that missile troops would be better of in the back (why get them hacked up.) At the same time while not in imminent danger of melee. They could be sent forward to Lose their missiles. Which of course is what happened in many Battles (IE archers emptied their quivers at the beginning of the battle.)