Editor in Chief Bill | 02 Jul 2021 12:45 p.m. PST |
You were asked – TMP link Was it a mistake for Napoleon to embroil his military in Spain? 79% said "it was a mistake to get embroiled in Spain" 11% said "it was not a mistake to get embroiled in Spain" |
ConnaughtRanger | 02 Jul 2021 1:20 p.m. PST |
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. |
Frederick | 02 Jul 2021 1:57 p.m. PST |
Biggest mistake was not getting out – with the Austrians and Prussians Napoleon at least didn't try to replace their monarchs with one of his idiot brothers |
All Sir Garnett | 02 Jul 2021 2:11 p.m. PST |
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Old Contemptible | 02 Jul 2021 4:29 p.m. PST |
I have to ask what was the thinking of the 11% who thought Spain was a good idea? I can suggest a few books for them to read and/or I have some property in Florida I would like to sell them. |
John the OFM | 02 Jul 2021 4:40 p.m. PST |
Well, you could knock me over with a feather! |
HMS Exeter | 02 Jul 2021 5:04 p.m. PST |
It seemed like a good idea at the time. |
Green Tiger | 02 Jul 2021 11:37 p.m. PST |
You can see why he did it – On the surface Spain looked like a company ripe for a hostile takeover. It had a large army and more importantly for Napoleon a large navy. Its monarchy was corrupt and not especially popular, its administration was inefficient. He wanted to ensure Spain was retained as a French satellite whilst bringing it under his direct control to make it more efficient. The upper classes were liberal and largely Francophile he just needed a puppet king… |
HMS Exeter | 03 Jul 2021 1:44 a.m. PST |
I'm not sure how anyone could have anticipated the virulent grass roots insurrection that resulted. Time and again, Nappy would defeat a country's army, dictate terms to, or reshuffle the, civilian authority, and the populace would simply adapt to the new reality. This time,…not so much. |
robert piepenbrink | 03 Jul 2021 3:46 a.m. PST |
"I'm not sure how anyone could have anticipated the virulent grass roots insurrection that resulted." Really? Please bear in mind that in this case he had NOT defeated the army, and he was NOT working through the civilian authority. He infiltrated his troops into the fortresses because he was an ally, then locked up the ruling dynasty, in order to hand the throne over to yet another sibling with no local connections. And he did this to the only Continental power which could rival France and Russia for nationalism--with a grossly inadequate number of second-tier troops. Any intelligence officer who didn't say "there is a good chance of this turning out really badly" should have been fired for gross incompetence. But Bonaparte was in most ways his own intelligence chief. I suppose he'd never heard of the Vendee, either. |
Au pas de Charge | 03 Jul 2021 7:31 a.m. PST |
Biggest mistake was not getting out – with the Austrians and Prussians Napoleon at least didn't try to replace their monarchs with one of his idiot brothers True. But those countries already had their own idiot monarchs firmly entrenched. I see too many blending Napoleon's morals with his military strategy. He seems to be one of the few people they do this with and it confuses the exercise because it is too personal a viewpoint. Napoleon should've finished the job in Spain personally and that he didn't was his mistake. |
42flanker | 03 Jul 2021 8:00 a.m. PST |
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Ruchel | 03 Jul 2021 11:34 a.m. PST |
But those countries already had their own idiot monarchs firmly entrenched. Maybe other monarchs were idiots, but they and their successors remained in power for many years. Napoleon and his brothers lasted only a few years. So, maybe they were more idiotic than those monarchs. Napoleon should've finished the job in Spain personally and that he didn't was his mistake. Please, avoid personality cult. Napoleon could never have won a war against Spanish people and Spanish geography. |
Au pas de Charge | 03 Jul 2021 1:21 p.m. PST |
@Ruchel Maybe other monarchs were idiots, but they and their successors remained in power for many years. Napoleon and his brothers lasted only a few years. So, maybe they were more idiotic than those monarchs Or maybe it was proof of how powerful the mutually supporting status quo of hereditary aristocracy was that the bigger idiots were the last men standing.
Au paas de Charge: Napoleon should've finished the job in Spain personally and that he didn't was his mistake. Ruchel: Please, avoid personality cult. Napoleon could never have won a war against Spanish people and Spanish geography. I did not claim that he could or would win the war in Spain, just that he should have finished it in person before embarking on other sizeable ventures. Please avoid charging at windmills. :) |
Ruchel | 03 Jul 2021 3:55 p.m. PST |
Or maybe it was proof of how powerful the mutually supporting status quo of hereditary aristocracy was that the bigger idiots were the last men standing. In one way or another, they proved successful in the end. Napoleon and his brothers failed despite the fact that they had every advantage at their disposal: the most populated country in Europe, and the wealthiest. The best army and the most decisive victories. But they were unable to capitalize on those advantages. In this sense they were true idiots. I did not claim that he could or would win the war in Spain, just that he should have finished it in person before embarking on other sizeable ventures. He knew he could never win the war in Spain, in person or through his best marshals. Due to this fact, he preferred to focus on other 'sizeable ventures'. It is a perfect example of idiotic decisions. Please avoid charging at windmills. :) Are you a windmill or a giant? |
Au pas de Charge | 06 Jul 2021 6:35 a.m. PST |
In one way or another, they proved successful in the end. Napoleon and his brothers failed despite the fact that they had every advantage at their disposal: the most populated country in Europe, and the wealthiest. The best army and the most decisive victories. But they were unable to capitalize on those advantages. I suppose they did fail but because I wasn't really "pulling" for them, I dont suppose I care. I always understood that Napoleon felt he had to use allied resources to evade France feeling any sustained war based pressures.
In this sense they were true idiots. You would've thought the monarchies he faced would've welcomed him with open arms as one of their number.
He knew he could never win the war in Spain, in person or through his best marshals. Due to this fact, he preferred to focus on other 'sizeable ventures'. It is a perfect example of idiotic decisions. I don't know that he could've won but you're sure that he would've lost? Are you a windmill or a giant? I'm someone without a Napoleonic agenda, dislike when I am accused of having one and delight in pointing out the inconsistencies of those who do have Napoleonic agendas. |
Ruchel | 06 Jul 2021 12:04 p.m. PST |
I always understood that Napoleon felt he had to use allied resources to evade France feeling any sustained war based pressures. Napoleon used mainly French resources. He had to use Allied resources later on. You would've thought the monarchies he faced would've welcomed him with open arms as one of their number. Well, he and his brothers had to fight against them. And the monarchies won. People defeated by idiots should be considered as the worst kind of idiots. I don't know that he could've won but you're sure that he would've lost? Yes. I'm someone without a Napoleonic agenda Me too. Napoleonic wargaming is merely a hobby. dislike when I am accused of having one I am not interested in accusing anybody. delight in pointing out the inconsistencies of those who do have Napoleonic agendas. There are no inconsistencies on this topic. A bunch of idiots (monarchs) won and another bunch of idiots (Napoleon and his brothers) lost. It is not a inconsistency, it is a fact. Maybe Napoleon's decisions were more idiotic than monarchs' ones. By the way, we should not use the word 'idiot'. It is inadequate and inaccurate. Joking aside, the real fact is that Napoleon made more mistakes than those monarchs. Due to those mistakes, Napoleon was defeated and French Empire lasted only a few years. In short, I am talking about facts. 'Napoleonic agendas' have nothing to do with those facts. |