"Defensive fire against charges" Topic

I am looking for Napoleonic rules that include powerful defensive fire, especially from attacked lines (even against frontal cavalry charges), able to stop charges and avoid melees.

Most rulesets are focused in melees or supposed combats (a simplified mix of events), and they do not accurately reflect the effects of defensive fire. Other rulesets even eliminate any kind of defensive fire.

I really like the ebb and flow I have read in many battle accounts: failed charges and firefights, renewed attempts to charge, and so on.

Any suggestion?

It's really a test of nerve rather than firepower, if the foot stand firm the cavalry is unlikely to close. C S Grant in his Napoleonic doesn't allow cavalry to charge home frontally against unshaken infantry.

Melees were very unusual unless one side was defending a building or fortification. In the vast majority of cases one side or other broke and ran which was why mostly bayonet wounds were consistent with stabbing someone from behind etc. If the defenders held then it was more likely that the attackers would stop and a firefight break out. Even cavalry found it difficult to charge formed and unshaken infantry. (Cavalry vs cavalry was a bit different.) Our house rules make infantry melees in the open very unlikely

Assuming survivable/treatable bayonet wounds:

bayonet wounds were consistent with stabbing someone from behind

70% of your muscles are on the rear of the body. Your pack would give some protection. Getting jabbed in the cheeks between the turnbacks is probably survivable.

Lethal bayonet thrusts:
- to throat – choke to death on own blood
- to chest – sucking lung wound or heart stab, possible broken ribs.
- to stomach – internal bleed-out (black blood = liver) – peritonitus

I have always understood that in most rules, a "melle" was more often than not a close range firefight anyway.

Hmph. Go tactical and not "grand tactical." CLS does that well enough, for instance. But remember it's literally a very dicey thing: a volley just seconds too soon will have inadequate effect, and a volley seconds too late won't halt charging horse. It would be interesting to see someone work it out with distances and speeds, but I suspect the timing of a volley against charging infantry was much more forgiving than actually trying to stop charging cavalry by volley fire.

Which brings us to another old question again. At what point is a nice of formed infantry no longer thick enough to stop cavalry by simply being "unshaken." Open order is presumably too thin. Is two ranks thick enough?

I'll go fix popcorn and watch the fireworks.

Any specific rule focus is likely to also contain compromises in other areas. Most are abstractions of the 'truth'.

Finding a set that creates a 'mostly historical result' that you seek given a number of variables is probably the best you can do.

Though currently in vogue, neither FOGN nor BP do so realistically. In fact, as cited, older rules of a less 'confused and specific' nature, or simpler, do provide them.
FWIW-YMMV-Disclaimers==
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"General d'Armee" has what I'd consider a 'traditional' feel to it which I'm fairly sure includes defensive fire against a charge.

don't forget the impact on morale by firing

Die feindlichen Kanonenkugeln sprangen ä la Ricochette dicht an der linken Flügelspitze unserer Masse vorbei auf das Grenadierbataillon des zweiten Regiments, welches sogleich einige Mann verlor. Wir deployirten darauf unsere Massen und begrüssten die rasch anmarschirende feindliche Infanterie aufs Beste mit einem wohl unterhaltenen Rottenfeuer, so dass sie auf 7 — 800 Schritte vor uns doch stehen blieb.

Legler, p.28
Very interesting, so the units deployed form close column into line to reduce the effect of artillery and then they greeted the advancing enemy with a well nourished fire of files so that the enemy stopped 7 to 800 paces in front of them!!

Interestingly we were playing a Black Powder Napoleonic game yesterday – a French infantry unit was unable to form square and took a charge from Austrian dragoons; the French were in good order, their fire emptied a bunch of saddles and the dragoons broke off and retired

7 to 800 paces?
That's a fair old way beyond safe distance from musketry.

Carnage & Glory has the defensive fire mechanism that you are looking for. A lot of other things in its' favor, but it is computer moderated, which some don't like.

What scale of game are you looking for, Ruchel: will your preferred basic unit size be the brigade, the battalion, the company?

If brigade plus, then let me offer my own "Bloody Big Battles!" (BBB).
link
This distinguishes fire combat from the close assault; assaults are frequently repulsed by fire without closing; and "ebb and flow" is a phrase that features in Napoleonics AARs on the BBBBlog:
bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com
(use the label 'Napoleonic' to search for them).

I'm sure there are plenty of other rulesets that allow charges to be repulsed with defensive fire, but I'll leave it to others to nominate them.

Hi Chris, thanks for your suggestion, but my preferred basic unit size is the battalion.

Are there any Napoleonic games that don't feature some form of "defensive fire" against an attacker?

Either it's natural in the sequence (You move, I shoot, resolve combat), or it's inserted as an extra step (defensive fire phase), or it's factored into the defender's combat value in certain formations and against certain enemies, and so on.

Except for really big-scale games, I can't think of any Napoleonic games that don't have that feature.

Most rulesets… do not accurately reflect the effects of defensive fire.

I think that's the issue: you don't think that the way most games do it, is accurate. But unless somebody knew what you thought "accurate" was – in terms of specific game mechanisms – then there's no way to answer your question to your satisfaction.

It's like asking, "Does anybody know any bars where the really cool people hang out? All the bars I've been to are full of losers!"

Republic to Empire have rules for firing at chargers and if they inflict casualties the chargers have to test morale to complete the charge.

I think that's the issue: you don't think that the way most games do it, is accurate. But unless somebody knew what you thought "accurate" was – in terms of specific game mechanisms – then there's no way to answer your question to your satisfaction.

I am talking about an specific event with an specific machanism (defensive fire, separated from other mechanisms). That is, one unit (or several units) charges and the charged unit (or units) uses defensive fire in order to stop or repulse the charging unit (or units).

So, you really use defensive fire and not incude it in general abstractions (melees, combats, firefights) which supposedly include many events in only one mechanism.

I am not interested in rulesets that include that kind of simplifications. I am looking for an specific mechanism devoted to defensive fire, with an specific section inside the rules.

I am talking about an specific event with an specific machanism (defensive fire, separated from other mechanisms). That is, one unit (or several units) charges and the charged unit (or units) uses defensive fire in order to stop or repulse the charging unit (or units).

That's not a mechanism; that's a sequence. A mechanism is how you do something. There are a million possible mechanisms for defensive fire.

Defensive fire, as you defined it, has been in most Napoleonic games for as long as I can remember: a sequence in which the defender shoots before the combat is resolved, and if the defender's fire is good enough, it could prevent the combat altogether.

That sequence was in all the classic 1:60 scale games of the 1980s: Empire, Valmy to Waterloo, Guard du Corps, Battles for Empire. It was in a lot of the 1990s games too, like Shako and Fire & Fury Napoleonic. It's in most of the recent games like Republic to Empire, FoG Napoleonic, Lasalle, Black Powder, General de Brigade, Battaile Empire, and… well, a lot of games.

Are you really having difficulty finding that in a game? Surely you've tried some of the above-mentioned?

I am looking for an specific mechanism devoted to defensive fire, with an specific section inside the rules.

All of the games I listed above have a specific mechanism for defensive fire, in its own section of the rules. But of course their mechanisms are all slightly different from one another.

So again: unless you can tell us what specific mechanism you're looking for, then there's no way to answer your question.

Neil Thomas' Napoleonic and 19th Century wargaming rules also have defensive fire when charged.

Defensive fire, as you defined it, has been in most Napoleonic games for as long as I can remember: a sequence in which the defender shoots before the combat is resolved, and if the defender's fire is good enough, it could prevent the combat altogether.

I am talking about defensive fire as a direct reaction against a charge, not an abstract defensive fire included in other events or sequences.

It was in a lot of the 1990s games too, like Shako and Fire & Fury Napoleonic. It's in most of the recent games like Republic to Empire, FoG Napoleonic, Lasalle, Black Powder, General de Brigade, Battaile Empire, and… well, a lot of games.

Thanks for all those suggestions. There is not specific defensive fire in Lasalle, Bataille Empire, La Feu Sacre, and others. Perhaps the defensive fire is abstracted inside any sequence, but it is not what I am looking for.

Republic to Empire, FoGN and Neil Thomas' rules may be good options. I dislike General de Brigade: weak defensive fire. Regarding General d'Armee, I dislike the 'Hold' rule. Maybe it is right for conscripts or militia, but it is an absurdity in the case of trained infantry.

But of course their mechanisms are all slightly different from one another.

Yes, that is evident. I will try them.

So again: unless you can tell us what specific mechanism you're looking for, then there's no way to answer your question.

Well, two requirements: specific defensive fire (direct reaction against a charge), and powerful defensive fire (real chances of stopping or repulsing a charge).

We play Shako. There definitely is defensive fire. A successful volley stops infantry along with disorder and possibly casualties. Cavalry is not stopped but fights disordered and possibly casualties which impact their melee roll.

Most rules, such as Black Powder mentioned above, have defensive fire.

There is not specific defensive fire in Lasalle, Bataille Empire, La Feu Sacre

I haven't played LFS in ages and don't have the book anymore, but the other two definitely have it. It's on page 41 of Lasalle, page 56 of Battaille Empire, page 40 of Black Powder, and so on.

Well, two requirements: specific defensive fire (direct reaction against a charge), and powerful defensive fire (real chances of stopping or repulsing a charge).

Those aren't mechanics. Your first request is for a sequence, and it's in every game I listed above, and a lot of others I didn't think of.

Your second request is for an outcome, but since you don't specify what "powerful" means to you, other than it has a chance to stop a charge, I can only repeat that every game I listed does have the possibility of that outcome. There are of course a zillion variables, such as the relative quality of the units involve, the amount of punishment they've already taken, the terrain, and so on.

I get the sense that what you're looking for is some probability of a particular outcome under certain circumstances. That's not a request for a game mechanic, that's a request for shifting the odds and calling it by some more obvious name, in order to give you the "feel" you want.

No, in Lasalle and Bataille Empire units can go directly to melee (combat). Charge and contact, without any defensive fire between charge declaration and contact. There is tactical fire but it has nothing to do with defensive fire (as a direct reaction against charges and contact).

Garth, I am not interested in your rethoric and bizantine discussions about mechanics and sequences.

I do not want to repeat my requirements. They are easy to understand. In many rules, defensive fire is too weak, so it is almost impossible to stop a charge.

I asked for suggestions. Fortunately, other people here have answered the question. Many thanks for your suggestions.

@ Ruchel

Over the Hills, from Stand to Games is battalion level and has a mechanism where defensive fire can drive off attackers. This is one of several reasons why I like this particular set.

@Steamingdave2

Thanks for your suggestion. I will purchase it (PDF version).

House rules I play: the declared target of a charge rolls to see if they fire at long or short range (modified by the quality of the firing unit). The charging unit checks a special morale check, with, for the purposes of the check only, casualties counting TRIPLE(i.e. 2 hits count as 6 for the morale check). If the charging unit fails it's check it balks, stops in place, and takes a disorder (instead of routing). If the charging unit passes the special check, it's high-diddle-diddle straight up the middle and the charge goes home.

Developed years ago by me, Colonel Hairy Haggis and Nappy29388 (may they RIP, gamers taken too soon).

@Speculus

I think your rules make sense. Regarding defensive fire, that rule pays special attention to its effects on morale.

Empire infantry charged by cavalry fires on fire table 3 which is long range, if charged by infantry its fire table 1 close range.

Newbury Napoleonic Warfare rules from the 1970's had a concept called 'attack distance'. This was 2" (40 yards) for infantry and 5" (100 yards) for cavalry. It was at this point that attacking infantry and cavalry took a reaction test to see if they charged home. Defensive fire was taken at that point and could, of course, contribute towards whether the attacking infantry or cavalry halted or continued advancing/charging. It was left to the discretion of the defender whether they elected to fire at the attack distance or withheld fire until point blank range. A further complication was that the defender could fire at the attack distance at point blank depending on the move rates of the attacking formation; or elect to not fire at point blank and take a melee benefit for having loaded weapons in melee combat.
Happy days ;-)
Kind regards
Allan

Send me a pm with your mail and I will send you a copy of my own rules Chassepot to Charleville – I think they have the exact mechanics you are asking for

@ Sparta

Many thanks for your kind offer, but I cannot send you a pm because I am not a supporting member.

I have had several Corps size battles using "General de Brigade: Deluxe Edition" (GdB) rules.
I think GdB defensive fire is well done.

Here is a rough explanation of the GdB defensive fire rules.

Unit A charges Unit B:

- Unit A declares Charge.

- Unit B declares whether it will stand and fire, change formation (i.e. go into square), and some units (skirmishers and artillery) may evade.
Let's assume Unit B will stand and fire.

- Unit A moves to halfway point between itself and Unit B.

- Unit B fires and inflicts casualties on Unit A.

- Unit A takes Moral Test with casualty modifiers. Depending on the 2D6 dice roll, if Unit A fails it may either Halt, Falter, Retreat, or Rout. If Unit A passes, it closes into contact with Unit B.

- Unit B takes a 2D6 Moral Test with modifiers for being charged. If Unit B fails Moral, it either Falter (and enter Melee disordered), Retreat, or Rout. If Unit B passes Moral, it stands and enters into Melee with Unit A.