"just a simple austerlitz unform question" Topic

This may be the simplest question I have ever seen.

Sure, if you say so.

i tried to copy the drawing to this subject but icould not

the dolman of the is white pelise blue and yellow cuffs and collar for the mairaoupol for trooper but tumpeter is the same ! o k.
the red plume i understand but the unform not

(Usually same for all regiments-) White chevron lace on sleeves of both garments.
Red plumes.
Even 'yandez.ru' is scarce on pre-1812

,,,but just in case you wish an amusement of mangled Englishki…
stumble through this item,,,,
link

;-]
~d

I'm trying to visualise the reactions of people on board a Spanish ship in the Caribbean, seeing an unfamiliar vessel approaching and suddenly unfurling the "funny Roger" . . .

John

<<I'm trying to visualise the reactions >>

Indeedy!
I've often in the past offered my services to help 'clean up' similar issues- but having been verbally spat on and snubbed as if I were defiling their mothers, I no longer care….
;-}
d

I'm not amused by my spelling mistakes order but try to make it as clear as possible talking English is almost perfect

the trumpeter s pelisse should blue and not white.
dolman white in stead blue

link this one

@just joe

Mark Conrad's translation of Viskovatov:

30 April 1802
Trumpeters[trubachi] are uniformed as hussar privates, with a red plume instead of white. They are also distinguished from privates by sewn-on chevrons [nashivki] or rakoviny ["shells"] of wool tape (in the same color as the braid) on the pelisse sleeves at the shoulder. They do not have: carbines, shoulder belts, or cartridge pouches, and in place of this last item each holster has six places or sockets for cartridges. Their keep their previous trumpets with woollen cords and tassels of the same colour as the braid on the pelisse and dolman (Illus. 1496).
Staff-trumpeters[shtab-trubachi], with the same uniform and weapons as the preceding squadron trumpeters, are distinguished from them by the same features as non commissioned officers have in comparison to Hussar privates (Illus. 1497). In addition, the cords and tassels on their trumpets are of three colours: white, black, and orange.

Colours for Hussar regiments' uniforms are prescribed as follows:
In the Mariupol Regiment, for lower ranks — blue [sinii] pelisse, white dolman, with yellow collar, cuffs, buttons, and braid; white sabertache with yellow trim; blue saddlecloths with yellow trim and braid (Illus. 1491, 1492, and 1493). For officers — gold trim and braid on the sabertache; white collar and cuffs on the undress coat, white collar on the greatcoat.

14 June 1803— The newly formed Belorussia and Odessa Hussar Regiments are prescribed:
For trumpeters — shakos have the same kitish-vitish and pompon as for privates, with a red plume (Illus. 1501).
For staff-trumpeters — with the same kitish-vitish and pompon as for non commissioned officers and a red plume with a black and orange top (Illus. 1503).

20 August 1803— These shakos described above are ordered to be introduced into all Hussar regiments, and beginning from this time, the former pattern of eagle on officers' sabertaches and saddlecloths is replaced by embroidered monograms and crowns, as in the Belorussia and Odessa Regiments (160).

Coloured illustrations extracted from Viskovatov Volume 11 to meet above commentary for:
1491. Private. Mariupol Hussar Regiment. 1802-1803.
1492. Private. Mariupol Hussar Regiment. 1802-1803.
1493. Hussar Shako. 1802-1803.
1496. Trumpeter. Sumy Hussar Regiment. 1802-1803.
1497. Staff-Trumpeter. Akhtyrka Hussar Regiment. 1802-1803.
1501. Private and Trumpeter. Belorussia Hussar Regiment 1803-1809.
1502. Noncommissioned Officer's Shako. Belorussia Hussar Regiment. 1803-1809.
1503. Officer and Staff-Trumpeter. Odessa Hussar Regiment. 1803.
link

Is there insanity in your family?

>>the trumpeter s pelisse should blue and not white.
dolman white in stead blue<<

Well joe you are telling us what you already knew.
You may understand your "in stead " comment but we cannot. You must have had conflicting sources perhaps??

I would not trust the Hourtoulle books that much. I've that one, and it contains many errors, not to understate extremely poor production of book! (Yes I spent time in the printing trade too!).

PoE data is as I knew it.
Before 1811 the chevrons lace was common to ALL RUSSIAN ARMY- reverse colours for musicians/ specialists were unknown/ non-existent in battle units AFAIK by research lately. Add the red plumage.

From 1811 the single 'swallow nests' on the shoulder mark, with the red plume/ comb, was all that identified battle musicians.

cheers d
-

Is there ins**** in your family?

I thought personal insults were forbidden here now?
Anyway thats not nice John.

Reminds me of the complete humiliation I suffered in Paris (of course) trying to explain something to someone in a hotel- after a few minutes stumbling as my French faltered- she rather clearly said in English, "its ok, we can speak in English if you like…" .

rangs hat look at the link the trooper looks o.k. but the trumpeter looks strange
i just assumed figured out how to post this drawing later mea culpa Zit er ins**** in je familie?
why this insult?

He was dribbling (babblng???) joe, don't worry about it.
This too is an unfortunate symptom of alzheimers etc…
Have a great paiting day !
dave

@justjoe,
Just not worth wasting your very valuable time on the insulters. They need to get a life!
Ian

the trooper of maripool and trumpeter have same color? so this draftsman mistake? my link!

Just joe.

You regularly change your title here but your postings are instantly recognisable.

People here are so helpful, if you give them a chance. If you cannot pose a question in English, use Google translate.

If that is too challenging, put any question in your native Dutch. It will soon be translated for you. There are so many who want to help but have no idea what you are asking.

Put your question in your native language. We will translate it for you. If you cannot do that then I am just increasingly convinced you are not genuine. If I say any more I will be banished once more

the trooper of maripool and trumpeter have same color? so this draftsman mistake? my link!

Perhaps. Your decision. They ARE the same colours- trumpeters wore normal uniforms. With lace etc…

PoE quote from Conrad is the 'verbatim' regulation issue, with illustrations. That doesn't guarantee they were worn. However… the "I would not trust the Hourtoulle books that much."

I regret they are not perfect in information. I have the same version in English and it is not even printed correctly!

I believe your hussar should wear sleeve lace like the dragoon next to him, plus the swallows nest.
The matter of only having "swallow nests on the shoulder mark, with the red plume/ comb, was all that identified battle musicians from 1811.

Again that was the 'decree', who's to say it happened???

cheers dave

Back to the nutty question of chevrons or no chevrons on the Hussar trumpeter – I have looked long and hard at the pictures in my possession and sources. The suggestion seems to be they were not adopted until 1820, but……..
I expect the definitive answer is in the book on Alexander's cavalry link

>> The suggestion seems to be they were not adopted until 1820, but……..

Nah I can't buy that one!
They were used extensively in the infantry, as drummers 'distinctions' so why would the cav be any different. Or have all the so called period illustrations and rule books been a complete hash?

I know French 'Ancien' had them too, but it seems to have been spurred on under N. as his regulations 'reintroduced' them in 1811 redesign.

Concerned _of_Mayfair…

This is worthy of making a meme….

**edit**
Hmm image insertion seems to be having technical difficulties.
Direct link: imgflip.com/i/5ddh20

I'd be more worried about what he's gonna do with it…

Ian- no idea where your munted url was supposed to go..!

Concerned_of_Mayfair…

Hi Dave,

Don't know why as it appears OK elsewhere – so trying again:

Oleg Leonov, Sergei Popov,Alexander Kibovsky
Russian military uniforms. Army of Alexander I: cavalry

Series: Russian military uniforms.
M., Russian Vityazi Foundation, 2014. 544 s., ill.
ISBN 978-5-903389-81-0.
The circulation is 1200 copies – more info at link

cheers, yikes, glad I cant read russian- maybe joe will get it for us ..?? <|:-))

Just taken a look at Marcel Gayda & Andre Krijitsky "L'Armee Russe sous le Tsar Alexandre 1er de 1805 a 1815", edited by Stephen Summerfield has on page 64 (which confirms swallow nests/shells but no chevrons for the hussar trumpeters):

Les trompettes ont en haut de la manche une broderie en tresse de laine, dite coquille, de la coleur des tresses. Pas de chevrons sur les manches. Pas de carabine , de giberne, ni de porte-mousqetton. Plumet rouge au schako. Les cordons de trompettes sont blancs ou jaunes, suivant le bouton. Le trompette-major a les distinctions de sous-officier, le plumet rouge a sommet noir et orange. Les cordons de trompette tricolores.

Similarly illustrations in Zvegincov's "L'Armee Russe 1801-1825" shows no chevrons until 1820.

Ok sorry read completely wrong way.
Forget I even wrote anything…